Connection Between The Twelve and the Allagan

[Kaiser-Ace]

Personally I've long held onto the idea that The Twelve, The Primals, and The Elementals all have a common link of some kind. And that link may very well rest withen, as the Ascians put it, The TRUE nature of the Echo. We know little about the primals and elementals, even less about the Elder Primals and The Twelve, and next to nothing about the Echo. So it's possible that the closer we get to the Ascians the closer we will get to understanding The Echo. Which also has a verry real risk, that once we find the truth with the Echo it may turn out that we are fighting for the wrong side. After all as little as we know about it, we still know more about the Echo than we do the Natures or Identitys of Hydalin and Zodiark. The Ascians how ever seem to not only understand the echo but also how bestow it AND how it really operates .

For all we know The Ascians them selves could be the Twelve and Hydalin could be what happened to Zodiark after the Fall of The Divine Era.

[Fangul]

Personally I've long held onto the idea that The Twelve, The Primals, and The Elementals all have a common link of some kind.

I find there is no reason to believe the Twelve are anything different from Primals. (and I *thought* there was some game text implying or suggesting this, but I could be making that up). Memes given physical manifestation by the combined will of a people and the power of the crystals. Of course, you create a feedback loop when you do this: what can be interpreted as the existence of these beings reinforces them in the peoples' consciousness.

Incidentally, you can expand this idea to explain both crafting and converting gear into materia. The crafter uses the component materials and their own will (fueled by crystals) to "make" the end product. When you convert to materia, you remake it into a crystal, but the crystal has gained "experience" or memory of how it was used, thus making materia instead of crystals again.

[ExHeroKid]

I find there is no reason to believe the Twelve are anything different from Primals. (and I *thought* there was some game text implying or suggesting this, but I could be making that up). Memes given physical manifestation by the combined will of a people and the power of the crystals. Of course, you create a feedback loop when you do this: what can be interpreted as the existence of these beings reinforces them in the peoples' consciousness.

Incidentally, you can expand this idea to explain both crafting and converting gear into materia. The crafter uses the component materials and their own will (fueled by crystals) to "make" the end product. When you convert to materia, you remake it into a crystal, but the crystal has gained "experience" or memory of how it was used, thus making materia instead of crystals again.

Wow. /10char

[Fangul]

Wow. /10char

Going a little further, let's assume that the Aether is roughly equivalent to the Lifestream from FFVII, the stuff that imbues life and consciousness, existing in everything, but in greater concentration in living things. And also that crystals are Aether. This would mean it is theoretically possible for some piece of your life force to crystalize (I think we have some evidence of this in creatures that drop crystal shards, for example, though whether those crystals originate from their life force directly or not, I wont' speculate). Now, I'd assume this would be some kind of cycle (I'd compare it to the water cycle), so who knows how much time would pass between death and some "unit" of the life force that previously comprised "you" to crystalize and return to the world of the living, but it does imply that it is theoretically possible that some part of "you" could be reincarnated as pants.

[treuhavik]

So, while we still can't explain the similarities between Dalamund and the second prison that began forming around Bahamut in the End of an Era trailer, I think I may be on to something with the Allagan and ascension after all...

[Spoilers Below!]


At the end of the 2.4 story, Minfilia drops some hints on the next patch, the next crystal tower expansion. Now, I forget the exact wording but Minfilia says the students of Baldesion have been disappearing from all over Eorzea, along with what I believe is their home island...and that they were studying/practicing some sort of ancient ritual ("reunion"?). Reunion is what I took away at least.

The students of Baldesion that we've encountered so far have turned out to be Allagan, no?

Could it be that these Allagan "students" are studying the ancient knowledge of their people, their goal being spiritual enlightenment (ascension), allowing them to reunite with the rest of their people in a higher plane? It may be a stretch but I can't help but jump at any hint toward my existing theory being correct.

What, if not ascension, could be happening to these "students", and who is their teacher, Baldesion?

[Alenore]

So, while we still can't explain the similarities between Dalamund and the second prison that began forming around Bahamut in the End of an Era trailer, I think I may be on to something with the Allagan and ascension after all...

[Spoilers Below!]


At the end of the 2.4 story, Minfilia drops some hints on the next patch, the next crystal tower expansion. Now, I forget the exact wording but Minfilia says the students of Baldesion have been disappearing from all over Eorzea, along with what I believe is their home island...and that they were studying/practicing some sort of ancient ritual ("reunion"?). Reunion is what I took away at least.

The students of Baldesion that we've encountered so far have turned out to be Allagan, no?

Could it be that these Allagan "students" are studying the ancient knowledge of their people, their goal being spiritual enlightenment (ascension), allowing them to reunite with the rest of their people in a higher plane? It may be a stretch but I can't help but jump at any hint toward my existing theory being correct.

What, if not ascension, could be happening to these "students", and who is their teacher, Baldesion?

You mean "Rejoining". Which is dimensional compression. The Isle of Val simply disappeared from reality. Disappearing from reality + stuff with dimension = went into another dimension. Willingly or not, it's the most likely explanation.

The Students of Baldesion aren't Allagan, Doga and Unei were because they were clones. Big difference. Also, it's a bit fuzzy since it was 3 months ago, but didn't they lie about being from the Students?

Finally, we know there's a Krile in the Students of Baldesion, and in FFV there's ac character named Krile Baldesion ;o Either her, or someone from her family.

[treuhavik]

You mean "Rejoining". Which is dimensional compression. The Isle of Val simply disappeared from reality. Disappearing from reality + stuff with dimension = went into another dimension. Willingly or not, it's the most likely explanation.

That's it, thanks! How'd you get dimensional compression from "Rejoining" which by definition means "to reunite"? Regardless, I'd argue that a separate plane of existence could = another dimension, but...

The Students of Baldesion aren't Allagan, Doga and Unei were because they were clones. Big difference. Also, it's a bit fuzzy since it was 3 months ago, but didn't they lie about being from the Students?

...you have a point here. I can't recall if they were lying or not either. I pay plenty of attention to cut scenes as they're happening but details like these slip my mind pretty quickly with everything else going on. You're right in that they are clones, and it would make sense for them to pose as the students in order to access the tower.

There's definitely a link between Crystal Tower, the Allagan and The Students of Baldesion though, as evidenced by the story itself. I would say that Cloud of Darkness is a contender but the portal we saw was opened by Xande within the tower, correct? I doubt it would be popping up all over Eorzea, consuming islands and (according to you) the "unaffiliated" Students of Baldesion. She, CoD, is likely going to remain, or is only able to manifest itself, there in the tower. Besides, it's the students that are responsible for their disappearances anyway due to this "rejoining" they were taking part in...gah, I hate cliffhangers!

We'll have to wait and see what happens, I guess. There's still far too many missing pieces.

There is of course the possibility that Minfilia wasn't talking about the crystal tower story expansion at all, that it was eluding to the next main story in some way, in which case, this discussion is pointless lol.

[Alenore]

That's it, thanks! How'd you get dimensional compression from "Rejoining" which by definition means "to reunite"? Regardless, I'd argue that a separate plane of existence could = another dimension, but...

Simple, they simply state it during the quest

...you have a point here. I can't recall if they were lying or not either. I pay plenty of attention to cut scenes as they're happening but details like these slip my mind pretty quickly with everything else going on. You're right in that they are clones, and it would make sense for them to pose as the students in order to access the tower.

There's definitely a link between Crystal Tower, the Allagan and The Students of Baldesion though, as evidenced by the story itself. I would say that Cloud of Darkness is a contender but the portal we saw was opened by Xande within the tower, correct? I doubt it would be popping up all over Eorzea, consuming islands and (according to you) the "unaffiliated" Students of Baldesion. She, CoD, is likely going to remain, or is only able to manifest itself, there in the tower. Besides, it's the students that are responsible for their disappearances anyway due to this "rejoining" they were taking part in...gah, I hate cliffhangers!

We'll have to wait and see what happens, I guess. There's still far too many missing pieces.

There is of course the possibility that Minfilia wasn't talking about the crystal tower story expansion at all, that it was eluding to the next main story in some way, in which case, this discussion is pointless lol.

FRom what I recall, when the Island of Val disappeared, they said the aeteric signature was very close to Ultima. It's much more an Allagan plot than CT related

[Alberel]

Recall also that the Ascians call the calamities at the end of each astral era a 'rejoining' as well. In 2.3 Elidibus makes mention that Eorzea has survived 7 rejoinings now and the next will be the last.

Whatever this dimensional compression is, it's also what the Ascians are trying to achieve.

[treuhavik]

Alright, I finally had the chance to listen/read over Gamer Escape's Lorecast with Fern. From it, I think it's pretty safe to say that A) The earthquake itself ended the Allagan empire and the lives of most of its' people and B) The Allagan were technologically advanced but not mentally or spiritually advanced enough to ascend like Daniel Jackson from Stargate SG-1.



So, with my insane conspiracy theories out of the way we're back at my original question:

Why does Dalamund and the summoned prison from the End of an Era trailer look so damn similar? There's gotta be some way to explain it.