Some suggestions for future end game raiding.

[Exstal]

So, supposedly the next turn of coil is the last. What I'm curious to know is, What's next? What type of event does SE have in stock for us? I'm personally getting tired of recycled content every patch and am craving for something fresh and exciting.

1: Larger events. You implemented alliances not long ago, But there's no reason to use it at the moment. When are we going to be able to do end game with our free companies? Events from FFXI such as Einherjar, Legion and Dynamis were so much fun with large numbers, Free companies feel kind of pointless at the moment. As much as I enjoy raiding with my current static I have loads of friends on my server I'd like to raid with, not the same 7 people every week. There are also some newer players who I would love to get clears for, but again lockout prevents you from helping your friends.

I agree. There is pretty 0 reason to have Free Companies because of the fact that you can just put everyone into a linkshell and every person have their own Free Company for extra bag space.

2: Remove or reduce the lockout. I know you said you are looking at a way to implement this and I hope you stay true to your word. Allowing us to enter 2-3 times a week would be a huge improvement. Personally I've found getting a static harder than the actual content since second coil was introduced.

Until there is a reasonable alternative to lockout issue, this will remain. Many, many, MANY players said CT loot lockout would be good. However if it was so good, SE would have already implemented it. So it's pretty obvious that it's a terrible solution. I personally believe that lockouts are justified when there are many instances that all have lockouts but all have relevant gear to be obtained. For example, if in 3.0 they add 3 different new raids; Dungeon A, a 8 man encounter with 5 bosses and some trash inbetween; Dungeon B, a variable 8~12 man encounter with 4 bosses and no trash; Dungeon C, a 24 man encounter with 4 bosses. All dungeons would yield gear that is on par with each other and gives differing stats, traits, what have you.

This kind of thinking hinges greatly on the ability of Naoki to bring in horizontal progression. I also believe gear should only have a maximum lifetime of 15 months, after that it should really show that one needs to upgrade.

3: Remove number requirements. Again, FFXI did this well. Most content can be cleared with lower numbers, So why are you making us take 8 people to something that can be cleared with 6 or 7? If one person doesn't show up, It disrupts the entire event for 7 other people or you have to take a person who you are uncertain can actually perform in the raid.

In some sense, this is a good idea. The way it should likely work is this (speculation), Third Coil is tuned for i110 for first two turns, i118+ for the latter but for a full 8 man party. You can go in with less but chance of success will drop exponentially. If they carry this kind of thing on then it's fine. I'd like to express that I don't believe that 7 great people should be able to clear Third Coil, or any subsequent raid, at the minimally tuned item level. I fully believe if you went into the first two turns at i110 with only 7 people that you should basically fail outright. However, this still falls back to the lockout problem.

4: Keep content relevant. Every patch all the gear we grinded for becomes irrelevant due to new content, If you kept some things the same ilvl, we would have more than 1 event to do each week plus all the gear we gain feels like more of an accomplishment. Refering back to FFXI yet again, You had several events that were worth doing a week which made you log in every day. It seems that towards the end of each patch, people login in just for coil then logout until next reset, because there's nothing else to do.

This is harder to do because of the nature of the loot we get. It's 100% chance to have something drop and, while it may not be what the players need at the time, it is likely the reason why lockouts exist in the first place. Adding more content would alleviate this problem a little more but still probably cause some other problem, although I don't know what that could be. The only idea I can think of is like in FFIX where you binded your gear to obtain the skills, but limit the binding to specific encounters? I think it would cause more annoyance than joy and might even start a whole new slew of elitism.

5: Add harder content which is worth doing. Savage was a great idea, but I think more people would attempt it if the rewards were greater than what you get from normal coil.

As it stands my static is only 3/8 wanting to do savage. The 5 that don't have all the exact same reasoning, "doesn't give better loot than current coil so it's a waste of time.".

while i agree with looking for lockout solution but i dont agree with adding more rewards to savage coil

savage coil was meant to shut up hardcore raiders for challenge but not feeding them more with gears rewards

Word on the grape vine is that savage Coil is a massive failure. People, SE included, failed to realize that people don't continue to raid after first completion because of challenge. First clear of everything eliminates the challenge. So such a foolish decision to implement a harder mode with exactly the same loot was expected to fail.

[WellFooled]

I think a lot of posters are taking this thread the wrong way. I don't think Audacity asked for any specific content from FFXI to be duplicated in FFXIV, but rather that some of the broad strokes that made that content great in FFXI could also be applied to FFXIV.

Like having more than one type of end game raid. It doesn't have to be Sky and Dynamis exactly, but rather that multiple end game raids can be running side by side each week, like Sky and Dynamis did.

Or having alliance based end game content. Again, he isn't asking for Dynamis itself, but end game content that includes as many participants as Dynamis did.

I have to agree with Audacity for the most part, particularly point number 4. I like end game rewards to have a little more staying power than the timeframe FFXIV uses, but I think something else would have to be added to make stats interesting enough for horizontal gear progression to work.

[Teryaani]

This kind of thinking hinges greatly on the ability of Naoki to bring in horizontal progression. I also believe gear should only have a maximum lifetime of 15 months, after that it should really show that one needs to upgrade.

If the development path taken so far is any indication, he's tossed horizontal progression out the window. I think we can expect vertical progression in 3.0. Starting out playing WoW, this feels natural to me, but the gear treadmill can get tiresome, even for people who are used to it.

Small gripe (not toward you Exstal, trying to conserve posts), As a casual player, the OP's complaint:

It seems that towards the end of each patch, people login in just for coil then logout until next reset, because there's nothing else to do.

doesn't resonate with me. I don't have enough time in game to do the things I want to do now. My crafters aren't three star, I still haven't gotten the i70 FSH main hand, I need to spiritbond for my novus, and I'm prepping to level ROG/NIN. There simply aren't enough hours in the day to do everything I want to in this game.

As it stands my static is only 3/8 wanting to do savage. The 5 that don't have all the exact same reasoning, "doesn't give better loot than current coil so it's a waste of time.".

Word on the grape vine is that savage Coil is a massive failure. People, SE included, failed to realize that people don't continue to raid after first completion because of challenge. First clear of everything eliminates the challenge. So such a foolish decision to implement a harder mode with exactly the same loot was expected to fail.

Quoted for truth. I don't understand the design philosophy of not rewarding harder content with better loot. The concern about the raider ego thing needs to be tossed out the window. I'm never going to be challenging these modes, but someone who puts the effort in should receive a reward for it that is beyond just a title.

[Raxion]

I'm hoping that they will find a way for coil lockouts... really the only thing that annoys me. I'd like to see simple a flag that if you are in a clear you are flagged as you were in a clear and cannot roll in that turn for loot anymore. Simple as that. Nothing fancy no one drop per week and other weird things... It keeps the same loot progression but also allows for people to help out with training/progression parties.

This would promote loot-selling. It's something that SE is trying to avoid. A good group could repeatedly sell current-tier boss kills (plus all of the loot from the kill) to people this way. This, of course, would ruin progression and water down new content almost instantly.

[Audacity]

Sorry to say I disagree with this post as I read many contradictions. ^^;

It wants fresh and exciting new contents but then wants old contents from FFXi which I am getting tired.
It wants larger events for more players but then wants removing number requirements as contents can be cleared with lower numbers.
It wants removing lockout that increases others' difficulity but then wants harder contents.

1: I never said I want specific FFXI content in FFXIV. I used events as an example of what sort of thing would be cool. I ran Dynamis for years, I don't really want to start the exact same thing again.
2: Again, You've missed my point. I just don't see the point in making very specific number requirements. If people want to try stuff with less. More power to them. Look at current content, Coil 2 is being sold by some groups. so it's possible to clear it with 7 people. Twintainia has been cleared by 4 people. Everything else can easily be cleared with less than 8 people. It would also make helping people clear older content a lot easier as you don't have to wait fill up the party with unneeded extra people.

As for implementing this idea in newer content, again. Look at dynamis. You could go in with 64 people, You could go in with 6 people. Hell if you wanted to waste a million gil and enter alone you could do so. It would add an extra element of challenge to the game.

3: I don't even understand the last point you're trying to make.

Also, I'm a human being, not an object, so I'm not sure why you're referring to me as "it"

I think a lot of posters are taking this thread the wrong way. I don't think Audacity asked for any specific content from FFXI to be duplicated in FFXIV, but rather that some of the broad strokes that made that content great in FFXI could also be applied to FFXIV.

Like having more than one type of end game raid. It doesn't have to be Sky and Dynamis exactly, but rather that multiple end game raids can be running side by side each week, like Sky and Dynamis did.

Or having alliance based end game content. Again, he isn't asking for Dynamis itself, but end game content that includes as many participants as Dynamis did.

I have to agree with Audacity for the most part, particularly point number 4. I like end game rewards to have a little more staying power than the timeframe FFXIV uses, but I think something else would have to be added to make stats interesting enough for horizontal gear progression to work.

Thank you. You've hit the nail on the head.

[Gucci_Charms]

Bring back weekly Primal Rowena token rewards please. Those were fun.

[Alipoprocks]

This would promote loot-selling. It's something that SE is trying to avoid. A good group could repeatedly sell current-tier boss kills (plus all of the loot from the kill) to people this way. This, of course, would ruin progression and water down new content almost instantly.

This argument seems to get brought up every time someone requests lockout change/removal. This whole game promotes loot-selling right now as it is. But by having lockouts, it prevents enjoyment from many people. There have been numerous posts from people about their frustrations of building and/or maintaining a static. People want to help their friends who may only have 5 people.

The good far outweighs the bad by removing or changing lockout rules. Runs get sold right now for everything anyway so I don't agree with that argument. Lockouts don't prevent sales.

[Kiara]

This argument seems to get brought up every time someone requests lockout change/removal. This whole game promotes loot-selling right now as it is. But by having lockouts, it prevents enjoyment from many people. There have been numerous posts from people about their frustrations of building and/or maintaining a static. People want to help their friends who may only have 5 people.

The good far outweighs the bad by removing or changing lockout rules. Runs get sold right now for everything anyway so I don't agree with that argument. Lockouts don't prevent sales.

Totally agree with the OP and Alipop's point here:

* There's *already* "loot / clear-selling" going on even with a Weekly Lockout.

Yoshi P talks about community, theme park and making it friendly for everyone, but in reality End Game is Exclusionary: It's you and 7 other people, and that's it.

You can't help your Free Company mates out. You can't help any LS members. You can't help out Friends.

What's the point of a Free Company or Linkshell if all the End Game content is designed *only* for 8 specific people and everyone else gets left out (or has to form exact party sizes of 8)?

"Loot Selling / Clear Selling" is always the same excuse Yoshi P brings up, when in reality as Alipop said, the GOOD *far* outweighs the Bad:

Being able to go through End Game more than once per week, to party with friends outside your Static, or help out FC / LS members, etc., and getting more excitement and life in the game FAR outweighs worries about "Loot Selling" (which happens already even now w/ the awful lockout).

It ties into the bad decisions made overall. If Yoshi P chose to make OTHER valuable drops appear, or make the drops less than 100% (but NOT something super low), it could be more sustainable (and again, more Horizontal Progression would help as well). Here's an example of an older Final Fantasy Boss and what it dropped:

KIRIN
* Kirin's Osode (39.2%)
* Kirin's Pole (47.7%)
* Dryadic Abjuration: Body (40.7%) (up to 2)
* Neptunal Abjuration: Body (27.6%) (up to 2)
* Wyrmal Abjuration: Legs (26.1%) (up to 2)
* Scroll of Quake (30.3%) (up to 2)
* Scroll of Raise III (17.6%) (up to 2)
* Orichalcum Ingot (22.8%) (up to 2)
* Shining Cloth (32.3%) (up to 2)
* Damascus Ingot (39.5%) (up to 2)


And these Crafting Materials were valuable (in the early years of this game). They were Rare and sought-after.

The bad Itemization in this game is crippling: Boring, limited stats - "Guess what the new Item Level 700 Helmet for DRG is going to be?" "Let me guess... more +STR and +VIT" LOL. There's no imagination, no creativity in the gear stats. No Horizontal Progression. Just pure Lockouts and simple gear.

He can change this, which would improve the longevity of FF XIV dramatically. Here's to hoping we get some changes (because I'd like to see this game succeed for years to come)!

[Nicobo]

...Also, I'm a human being, not an object, so I'm not sure why you're referring to me as "it"...

Your goal appeared to be good. So I intended using "it" to state that I was talking about the content in your post. ^^;

[Synestr]

Totally agree with the OP and Alipop's point here:

* There's *already* "loot / clear-selling" going on even with a Weekly Lockout.

Yoshi P talks about community, theme park and making it friendly for everyone, but in reality End Game is Exclusionary: It's you and 7 other people, and that's it.

You can't help your Free Company mates out. You can't help any LS members. You can't help out Friends.

What's the point of a Free Company or Linkshell if all the End Game content is designed *only* for 8 specific people and everyone else gets left out (or has to form exact party sizes of 8)?

"Loot Selling / Clear Selling" is always the same excuse Yoshi P brings up, when in reality as Alipop said, the GOOD *far* outweighs the Bad:

Being able to go through End Game more than once per week, to party with friends outside your Static, or help out FC / LS members, etc., and getting more excitement and life in the game FAR outweighs worries about "Loot Selling" (which happens already even now w/ the awful lockout).

It ties into the bad decisions made overall. If Yoshi P chose to make OTHER valuable drops appear, or make the drops less than 100% (but NOT something super low), it could be more sustainable (and again, more Horizontal Progression would help as well). Here's an example of an older Final Fantasy Boss and what it dropped:

KIRIN
* Kirin's Osode (39.2%)
* Kirin's Pole (47.7%)
* Dryadic Abjuration: Body (40.7%) (up to 2)
* Neptunal Abjuration: Body (27.6%) (up to 2)
* Wyrmal Abjuration: Legs (26.1%) (up to 2)
* Scroll of Quake (30.3%) (up to 2)
* Scroll of Raise III (17.6%) (up to 2)
* Orichalcum Ingot (22.8%) (up to 2)
* Shining Cloth (32.3%) (up to 2)
* Damascus Ingot (39.5%) (up to 2)


And these Crafting Materials were valuable (in the early years of this game). They were Rare and sought-after.

The bad Itemization in this game is crippling: Boring, limited stats - "Guess what the new Item Level 700 Helmet for DRG is going to be?" "Let me guess... more +STR and +VIT" LOL. There's no imagination, no creativity in the gear stats. No Horizontal Progression. Just pure Lockouts and simple gear.

He can change this, which would improve the longevity of FF XIV dramatically. Here's to hoping we get some changes (because I'd like to see this game succeed for years to come)!

I liked and I am going to quote it, we all need to read this again! Very well put and makes so much sense. This idea needs to be spread to Masa P's attentions.