Honest question: If every player/class/job is equal,who is unique? (Gameplay topic)

[RiceisNice]

...

Now the problem is, how do you stray from the concept of "basic" before you cross the line of losing the identify of what they're supposed to do in that specific role, or what's even considered out of the basic? Do we really want to over-complicate things so much that it ends up becoming more of a burden trying to balance the class, and to the point that they can't even keep up with the previous classes because of it?

The earliest example I can come up with this is WoW's paladin during classic, they'd have over 5-6 different seals that give them different combat boosts, only one can be active at a time, lasts 20 seconds ,and can be used with judgement to procure different effects (nuke damage, healing, mana restoration, snaring, etc). The problem was that it ended up being incredibly cumbersome and all but 2 seals ends up being impractical in PvE. It became so overly complex and unnessescary that they eventually ended up making the seals a 30 minute self-buff and took out a lot of the unnecessary ones. I have other examples of where some games have gone out of their way to make a character have incredibly unique mechanics, but it ends up breaking what little balance the game had, but it's straying off the topic at that point.

And with regards to OP, I've only looked at the topic a little bit, but the problem he's presented is that the classes are all the either the same or play too similarity to each other (which I'm sure you can disagree, espesically in regards to how each of the tanks work and the healers themselves). And when you start making single posts just to discredit or bash people without contributing anything, it quickly becomes a problem and really doesn't help your standpoint.

[Scootaloo]

And with regards to OP, I've only looked at the topic a little bit, but the problem he's presented is that the classes are all the either the same or play too similarity to each other (which I'm sure you can disagree, espesically in regards to how each of the tanks work and the healers themselves). And when you start making single posts just to discredit or bash people without contributing anything, it quickly becomes a problem and really doesn't help your standpoint.

If you'll excuse the childish and cliche statement but...

*makes her best little girl whining voice* They started it!

*sigh* but i digress, cynric states many points and things that I failed to convey properly in my OP. The fact that nearly every poster in this thread(with the exception of a few people) has more or less made it clear that they don't care or that they don't want things to change and are using every single means of discrediting to make me look like a noobish idiot, makes me think they are see these issues as well and are simply lashing out in hopes that if they derail this thread and turn it into a potshot thread, no GMs will dare look at it and possibly convey these issues to the devs.

While they may not speak English, the GMs do and will translate these things for them.

To people who have been doing their best to bash and derail this thread:

So congrats people, you've made sure no GM will dare look at this thread and convey these issues to the devs, congrats!

[Pantz]

To people who have been doing their best to bash and derail this thread:

So congrats people, you've made sure no GM will dare look at this thread and convey these issues to the devs, congrats!

If you mean people challenging your views and opinions are bashing and derailing your thread, I really pity you. I guess the only thing you want to hear is people agreeing with you and calling you a genius for making a suggestion.

And you are still missing the point people make so many times in this thread already. There are no "issues" to begin with at all.

And for goodness sake, stop exaggerating. There are a lot more posts that properly challenge your points than there are posts that just plain insult you. Pointing out the flaws in your points isn't derailing a thread.

Attacking your points isn't the same as attacking you.

[Scootaloo]

If you mean people challenging your views and opinions are bashing and derailing your thread

No, I don't mean that. There have been many people who have made valid counter points and I have even acknowledged them. A good example being that each class DOES have its own playstyle.

BUT! This does not mean they are suddenly 100% right and I'm 100% wrong just because they point out a few minor unique qualities in the classes. As a few posters have pointed out, the issue here is that the classes aren't super unique but they aren't super similar, They're just mostly super basic MMO classes. Nothing special about them in general.

That's the WHOLE POINT of this thread, nothing makes them stand out from one another. Each class should have something about them that makes me the player go "oh yeah! I want to be this class because of "Insert skills or passive skills here"

Not, "Do I want to jump around the mob just to deal max dmg, move a few times to deal max dmg, or stand in place and not have to move at all to deal max dmg?"

A point many posters seem to be missing as they keep on pointing out their skills and mechanics instead of looking deeper into the class and attempt to see what makes them stand out from each other.

As much as I hate doing so, I'm going to have to drag FFXI into this topic...

Each job had something about them that made them stand out from their counterparts(this was pre-abby mind you).

White Mage, everyone knew this was the ultimate healer, no class could compare to the healing skills this class had.

Black Mage, the only class in the game capable of using the devastating Ancient Magic.

Blue Mage, the only class in the game that could learn monster skills and use them against others.

Ninja, No class in the game has more evasion than this class and they have the ultimate spell, Utsumi: Ichi and Utsumi: Ni. AKA: Shadows! A Ninjitsu spell that allows to you evade ANY SPELL OR ATTACK.

You seeing the trend here? I just pointed out one thing about every job in FFXI that would make a player want to play that job. They are things that make the class stand out from the others.

Now take a look at FFXIV classes. What do they have that makes them stand out from one another?

See my point yet?

[Pantz]

That's the WHOLE POINT of this thread, nothing makes them stand out from one another. Each class should have something about them that makes me the player go "oh yeah! I want to be this class because of "Insert skills or passive skills here"

You are still missing the point. Many people here have already pointed out the problems of making each class too unique.

You brought up something you though was a problem and then proceeded to give a suggestion to solve it. Now, since you brought up a point, others are free to counter it if they disagree. If you read through the posts here, people are attacking your argument on two fronts. First, they are attacking what you brought forth as a problem. Second, they are attacking your suggestions because your suggestion pose some problems.

Now, if you truly believe in your own points and suggestions, persuade us why we are wrong in saying those things.

[Scootaloo]

You are still missing the point. Many people here have already pointed out the problems of making each class too unique.

You brought up something you though was a problem and then proceeded to give a suggestion to solve it. Now, since you brought up a point, others are free to counter it if they disagree. If you read through the posts here, people are attacking your argument on two fronts. First, they are attacking what you brought forth as a problem. Second, they are attacking your suggestions because your suggestion pose some problems.

Now, if you truly believe in your own points and suggestions, persuade us why we are wrong in saying those things.

Firstly, the point of this thread was to bring these issues to light, NOT convince the ENTIRE playerbase that "I'm right, Your wrong, deal with it!*puts on shades*"

Secondly, yes there is a great risk in making classes too unique but if they can pull off an MMO that has stood the test of time for 10+ years and STILL uses PS2 graphics, then I think they are more than capable of finding a balance and doing the same here. No it doesn't need to be a FFXI clone,(Hell, I'd unsub if they did that.)but they do need to give each class something that will make the player look at them and be able to choose a reason WHY they want to play that class, not just trying to decide on HOW they wanna dish out the dmg. Also, I made an edit to my earlier post so feel free to read over it.

[Duelle]

Secondly, yes there is a great risk in making classes too unique but if they can pull off an MMO that has stood the test of time for 10+ years and STILL uses PS2 graphics, then I think they are more than capable of finding a balance and doing the same here.

"Balance" and FFXI are mutually exclusive. If you look at the trends that formed in that game over the years, it's pretty damn clear.

That aside, the reason people stick around is because of tribalism (AKA the nonsense that turns everything in an "us vs them" scenario), and the attachment formed when you spend a shitton of time on something. Old school MMOs relied a LOT on that, and people expectedly cling to it to justify the many hours spent on some of the stuff from those games.

they do need to give each class something that will make the player look at them and be able to choose a reason WHY they want to play that class, not just trying to decide on HOW they wanna dish out the dmg.

This already exists. If you like the aesthetic of Kain Highwind and jumps, you're going to play a dragoon. If you like hitting things with your fists and martial arts, you're gonna play MNK. If you like black mages and nukes, chances are you'll play BLM. If you like pet classes and utility, you'll play SMN. If you like big axes, active mitigation and rage, chances are you'll gravitate towards WAR. If you like swords you'll be lured by PLD.

Granted, you won't find what you like until you actually try those jobs, but that's sort of the point of playing the game. Just be glad we don't have to reroll every time we want to try a new class.

[XNihili]

White Mage, everyone knew this was the ultimate healer, no class could compare to the healing skills this class had.
Black Mage, the only class in the game capable of using the devastating Ancient Magic.
Blue Mage, the only class in the game that could learn monster skills and use them against others.
Ninja, No class in the game has more evasion than this class and they have the ultimate spell, Utsumi: Ichi and Utsumi: Ni. AKA: Shadows! A Ninjitsu spell that allows to you evade ANY SPELL OR ATTACK.

That's just lore. Otherwise it's just all the same.
Ancient magics are just like normal spell except longer casting time and piss poor damage compared to MP cost.
Blue mage spells are just spells, except the way you get them from monsters and how you allocate them. You have the damage spells, the healing spells, some utility ones and that's it.
Ninja is not the best evasion class because Thief is the one with more evasion bonus traits. And everybody had the utsusemi.
If you are talking about melee DPS in FFXI, everybody is just in autoattack while waiting for TP to do TP attack

[Fyce]

Now take a look at FFXIV classes. What do they have that makes them stand out from one another?

See my point yet?

You can't find a difference between them.
As stated multiple times in the thread, what you think is a fact is just your own opinion.

People may agree with you, and people may not. And as you are now well aware after 16 pages, a lot of people disagree with you.
You expressed your opinion, people answered and you now know that you are the minority.

You say "I think classes are too similar", people say "no, they're not".
That's it, end of the story.

[Aegis]

You can't find a difference between them.
As stated multiple times in the thread, what you think is a fact is just your own opinion.

People may agree with you, and people may not. And as you are now well aware after 16 pages, a lot of people disagree with you.
You expressed your opinion, people answered and you now know that you are the minority.

You say "I think classes are too similar", people say "no, they're not".
That's it, end of the story.

A lot of people agree with him also.

Lol@ BLU/ToAU in general.

King Ranperre's Tomb Monk burns were where it was at before all that new fangled bird camp business and ToAU easy mode xp/merits.

:>

Before my time, Old Timer.

Besides, Imps were where it was at, with the occasional Mindflayer.