Honest question: If every player/class/job is equal,who is unique? (Gameplay topic)

[Cynric]

Yes I agree with you about the uniqueness among DPS, There isn't much there, at least in terms of game play. Lemme explain what I mean, Dragoon, Monk, and Bard, don't have very much that separates them in terms of play style uniqueness. Bard does Physical damage from far away has slight healer / DPS utility, Dragoon and Monk do basically the same thing from up close. Now while Monk does have a slight difference with having to manage greased lightning and properly position every move, this is pretty average in terms of game play on a DPS class.

Dragoon on the other hand is a very basic MMO DPS class, you have your standard rotation, your advanced rotation and general buff and dot management. A couple of positioning skills and a few skills that root them.

Bard does have a bit more utility than either of those two classes but it's really not what it could have been, which makes it feel more same ish but with less penalties for messing up a DPS rotation.

Now while neither of those classes are extremely unique to each other, they're also extremely basic classes in terms of MMO's. That's kind of what you're missing, Monk is a basic Assassin class archetype, Dragoon is a basic burst DPS class, and Bard is a basic ranged class with some good utility added in.

Some magical ability that only they can use will not change them from being basic. Even with them being basic and the common traits they share, you still have to change your mindset between each job. Monks have to know the encounter to keep GL 3 up and keep downtime from doing damage to a minimum as well as where to pick up on refreshing what when re engaging a boss. You also need reflexes to play either Monk or Dragoon. Dragoon mindset changes to making 100% sure they get that heavy thrust up, which sometimes requires waiting when a boss turns, whereas a monk wont do that, they also have to make sure that when they jump they wont get killed while doing so. Disengaging from a boss inversely doesn't hurt a dragoon as much as a monk so they wont risk life and limb to keep buffs going, as they can refresh them and start over very easily. Bard mindset is even further different, where they worry more about DoT uptime on as many targets as possible as well as monitoring the healer MP, singing Foe depending on composition and singing paeon in longer fights where their melee may be stressed on TP. So a bard will pay more attention to the chat, the party panel, than the AoE circle nowhere near them.

The classes for physical dps may not be super unique between each other due to them being such basic classes for an MMO but they do have to be played very differently. Its not just smack the best rotation and hope for the best.

We go to our Magical DPS now, Black mage is a basic Burst magic class with a cooldown mechanic based into mana regeneration . The fact that in order to keep doing DPS they need to cooldown their damage with a few ticks of recovery makes them play a little different than a normal burst magician class in standard MMOs, makes them decently unique. But they are vastly different than...

Summoner, a basic DoT class with a pet mechanic tacked on as an afterthought.(at least that's what it feels like) This class is super basic in terms of a DoT class, and the pet mechanic doesn't even feel very fleshed out enough to be worth being there. However despite that it is extremely different than a black mage in terms of well, everything. A summoner can even raise party members, adding a different kind of utility black mage(basically pure damage) just doesn't have. That makes the two of them different from each other, and both of these are vastly different from their physical counter parts.

Now for healers. This one is a no brainer.

You have your White Mage, a standard reaction based healing class with quite a bit of AoE damage and healing capabilities , and very little damage mitigation. This class tops you off, regens your health with good HoT's, and saves your life. This is another very basic healing class but it's honestly what I would expect from a class called White Mage.

Then you have Scholar, decent sustain damage, kinda eh healing, but an overall much better pet mechanic feel than summoner. This class wont heal your whole party in same level content like a White Mage can but what it will do is heal one person or a couple of people extremely well compared to white mage, it also has a really good pet mechanic where you can pick and choose what pet you want to run with, then as if all that isn't enough. This class heals you slightly, one person or the whole party, then adds a damage mitigation shield on top of that heal to reduce further damage. Definitely a proactive healer and vastly different than a white mage. A scholar will do much better after knowing the mechanics of a fight where as a white mage can react to things as they come, usually if you have a scholar reacting to things as they come your party is dying. In fact playing a scholar like a white mage and vice versa will probably cause wipes in strong content, or even mediocre content.

Now we've got the tanks.
Paladin is an extremely basic tank, You hit 1-2-3 combo, you use your AoE hate move when you need to, and press a hotkey before a big hit comes. This is a pretty much standard package and isn't wholly unique to MMO's even. I could have imagined better ways for this class to function, but for a class probably meant for players new to tanking. I see why it isn't complicated.

Versus

Warrior, Now this tank here , I wish they could of kept the gameplay more suited to the original style, but Paladins so darn basic tank it was just too Overpowered(ha) compared to the original idea for warriors. However, they still function very differently, a Warrior can pretty much reheal most of the damage they take if they're played properly throughout an encounter, They also have a couple of different combo routes that do different things, something a paladin doesn't get to do. They also have to manage a stacking system and healers have to manage a squishier but higher HP pool. Warriors are a great tanking class that doesn't mitigate very much damage but instead heals it off while mitigating things they just can't heal off. While this class still needs some work, the basic gameplay of this class versus the extremely basic and new player friendly paladin is very different.

And of course it goes without saying that DPS , tanks, and healers are all different from each other as well.

I feel that the sameness you feel comes from the fact that all of the classes are extremely basic versions of staple MMO classes, and don't have a lot of special mechanics or management systems to separate them from each other. But they are in no way vastly similar outside of what their role demands them to do, and they can not be played exactly the same in any way shape or form and expect for you to be performing your role properly.

TL;DR : The classes aren't super unique but they aren't super similar, They're just mostly super basic MMO classes. Nothing special about them in general. A special skill wont change that. The classes actually must "function" differently from the base up in order for them to feel more fun. And for the current classes, without a rework that wont happen. Although if you think scholar and WHM are anything similar, than you don't know how to play one of those jobs right.

[Scootaloo]

snip

Holy crap! You just more or less pointed out EVERYTHING that I see wrong with the classes as they are! You sir, are FREAKING EPIC!

[Cynric]

Holy crap! You just more or less pointed out EVERYTHING that I see wrong with the classes as they are! You sir, are FREAKING EPIC!

Ha thanks. While I know how you feel, I do think that the only reason our current classes function in the basic manner they do is because of 2.0 release / development time. They didn't exactly have a lot of time to change up the formula plus they wanted classes that people who haven't been playing MMO's for a very long time could use to full potential. As for your question. There is no such thing as "perfect" balance, but our current balance could exist with the classes functioning different, and they very well may later into a different level cap and with a(hopeful) change to the armoury and cross class system. We just needed basic bare bones things to revive the game with.

Also I did say a lot of stuff others said in the topic already, our classes really are unique to their other classes in their roles, and a special skill wont help them be more unique. The problem is a bit different than the uniqueness they have from each other, and more so the uniqueness they have from their own basic game play style.

Scholar, Warrior, Monk, Ninja, are definitely going in the right direction though.

[Estevo]

Ha thanks. While I know how you feel, I do think that the only reason our current classes function in the basic manner they do is because of 2.0 release / development time. They didn't exactly have a lot of time to change up the formula plus they wanted classes that people who haven't been playing MMO's for a very long time could use to full potential.

Well those are my sentiments as well, I think they did a fantastic job with the time they were given, although with that fact in mind there is all the more reason to think about overhauling a few systems down the line, or at least improve and expand on if they can, that would be great.

[RiceisNice]

...

Now the problem is, how do you stray from the concept of "basic" before you cross the line of losing the identify of what they're supposed to do in that specific role, or what's even considered out of the basic? Do we really want to over-complicate things so much that it ends up becoming more of a burden trying to balance the class, and to the point that they can't even keep up with the previous classes because of it?

The earliest example I can come up with this is WoW's paladin during classic, they'd have over 5-6 different seals that give them different combat boosts, only one can be active at a time, lasts 20 seconds ,and can be used with judgement to procure different effects (nuke damage, healing, mana restoration, snaring, etc). The problem was that it ended up being incredibly cumbersome and all but 2 seals ends up being impractical in PvE. It became so overly complex and unnessescary that they eventually ended up making the seals a 30 minute self-buff and took out a lot of the unnecessary ones. I have other examples of where some games have gone out of their way to make a character have incredibly unique mechanics, but it ends up breaking what little balance the game had, but it's straying off the topic at that point.

And with regards to OP, I've only looked at the topic a little bit, but the problem he's presented is that the classes are all the either the same or play too similarity to each other (which I'm sure you can disagree, espesically in regards to how each of the tanks work and the healers themselves). And when you start making single posts just to discredit or bash people without contributing anything, it quickly becomes a problem and really doesn't help your standpoint.

[Scootaloo]

And with regards to OP, I've only looked at the topic a little bit, but the problem he's presented is that the classes are all the either the same or play too similarity to each other (which I'm sure you can disagree, espesically in regards to how each of the tanks work and the healers themselves). And when you start making single posts just to discredit or bash people without contributing anything, it quickly becomes a problem and really doesn't help your standpoint.

If you'll excuse the childish and cliche statement but...

*makes her best little girl whining voice* They started it!

*sigh* but i digress, cynric states many points and things that I failed to convey properly in my OP. The fact that nearly every poster in this thread(with the exception of a few people) has more or less made it clear that they don't care or that they don't want things to change and are using every single means of discrediting to make me look like a noobish idiot, makes me think they are see these issues as well and are simply lashing out in hopes that if they derail this thread and turn it into a potshot thread, no GMs will dare look at it and possibly convey these issues to the devs.

While they may not speak English, the GMs do and will translate these things for them.

To people who have been doing their best to bash and derail this thread:

So congrats people, you've made sure no GM will dare look at this thread and convey these issues to the devs, congrats!

[Pantz]

To people who have been doing their best to bash and derail this thread:

So congrats people, you've made sure no GM will dare look at this thread and convey these issues to the devs, congrats!

If you mean people challenging your views and opinions are bashing and derailing your thread, I really pity you. I guess the only thing you want to hear is people agreeing with you and calling you a genius for making a suggestion.

And you are still missing the point people make so many times in this thread already. There are no "issues" to begin with at all.

And for goodness sake, stop exaggerating. There are a lot more posts that properly challenge your points than there are posts that just plain insult you. Pointing out the flaws in your points isn't derailing a thread.

Attacking your points isn't the same as attacking you.

[Scootaloo]

If you mean people challenging your views and opinions are bashing and derailing your thread

No, I don't mean that. There have been many people who have made valid counter points and I have even acknowledged them. A good example being that each class DOES have its own playstyle.

BUT! This does not mean they are suddenly 100% right and I'm 100% wrong just because they point out a few minor unique qualities in the classes. As a few posters have pointed out, the issue here is that the classes aren't super unique but they aren't super similar, They're just mostly super basic MMO classes. Nothing special about them in general.

That's the WHOLE POINT of this thread, nothing makes them stand out from one another. Each class should have something about them that makes me the player go "oh yeah! I want to be this class because of "Insert skills or passive skills here"

Not, "Do I want to jump around the mob just to deal max dmg, move a few times to deal max dmg, or stand in place and not have to move at all to deal max dmg?"

A point many posters seem to be missing as they keep on pointing out their skills and mechanics instead of looking deeper into the class and attempt to see what makes them stand out from each other.

As much as I hate doing so, I'm going to have to drag FFXI into this topic...

Each job had something about them that made them stand out from their counterparts(this was pre-abby mind you).

White Mage, everyone knew this was the ultimate healer, no class could compare to the healing skills this class had.

Black Mage, the only class in the game capable of using the devastating Ancient Magic.

Blue Mage, the only class in the game that could learn monster skills and use them against others.

Ninja, No class in the game has more evasion than this class and they have the ultimate spell, Utsumi: Ichi and Utsumi: Ni. AKA: Shadows! A Ninjitsu spell that allows to you evade ANY SPELL OR ATTACK.

You seeing the trend here? I just pointed out one thing about every job in FFXI that would make a player want to play that job. They are things that make the class stand out from the others.

Now take a look at FFXIV classes. What do they have that makes them stand out from one another?

See my point yet?

[Pantz]

That's the WHOLE POINT of this thread, nothing makes them stand out from one another. Each class should have something about them that makes me the player go "oh yeah! I want to be this class because of "Insert skills or passive skills here"

You are still missing the point. Many people here have already pointed out the problems of making each class too unique.

You brought up something you though was a problem and then proceeded to give a suggestion to solve it. Now, since you brought up a point, others are free to counter it if they disagree. If you read through the posts here, people are attacking your argument on two fronts. First, they are attacking what you brought forth as a problem. Second, they are attacking your suggestions because your suggestion pose some problems.

Now, if you truly believe in your own points and suggestions, persuade us why we are wrong in saying those things.

[Scootaloo]

You are still missing the point. Many people here have already pointed out the problems of making each class too unique.

You brought up something you though was a problem and then proceeded to give a suggestion to solve it. Now, since you brought up a point, others are free to counter it if they disagree. If you read through the posts here, people are attacking your argument on two fronts. First, they are attacking what you brought forth as a problem. Second, they are attacking your suggestions because your suggestion pose some problems.

Now, if you truly believe in your own points and suggestions, persuade us why we are wrong in saying those things.

Firstly, the point of this thread was to bring these issues to light, NOT convince the ENTIRE playerbase that "I'm right, Your wrong, deal with it!*puts on shades*"

Secondly, yes there is a great risk in making classes too unique but if they can pull off an MMO that has stood the test of time for 10+ years and STILL uses PS2 graphics, then I think they are more than capable of finding a balance and doing the same here. No it doesn't need to be a FFXI clone,(Hell, I'd unsub if they did that.)but they do need to give each class something that will make the player look at them and be able to choose a reason WHY they want to play that class, not just trying to decide on HOW they wanna dish out the dmg. Also, I made an edit to my earlier post so feel free to read over it.