Honest question: If every player/class/job is equal,who is unique? (Gameplay topic)

[Scootaloo]

If you mean people challenging your views and opinions are bashing and derailing your thread

No, I don't mean that. There have been many people who have made valid counter points and I have even acknowledged them. A good example being that each class DOES have its own playstyle.

BUT! This does not mean they are suddenly 100% right and I'm 100% wrong just because they point out a few minor unique qualities in the classes. As a few posters have pointed out, the issue here is that the classes aren't super unique but they aren't super similar, They're just mostly super basic MMO classes. Nothing special about them in general.

That's the WHOLE POINT of this thread, nothing makes them stand out from one another. Each class should have something about them that makes me the player go "oh yeah! I want to be this class because of "Insert skills or passive skills here"

Not, "Do I want to jump around the mob just to deal max dmg, move a few times to deal max dmg, or stand in place and not have to move at all to deal max dmg?"

A point many posters seem to be missing as they keep on pointing out their skills and mechanics instead of looking deeper into the class and attempt to see what makes them stand out from each other.

As much as I hate doing so, I'm going to have to drag FFXI into this topic...

Each job had something about them that made them stand out from their counterparts(this was pre-abby mind you).

White Mage, everyone knew this was the ultimate healer, no class could compare to the healing skills this class had.

Black Mage, the only class in the game capable of using the devastating Ancient Magic.

Blue Mage, the only class in the game that could learn monster skills and use them against others.

Ninja, No class in the game has more evasion than this class and they have the ultimate spell, Utsumi: Ichi and Utsumi: Ni. AKA: Shadows! A Ninjitsu spell that allows to you evade ANY SPELL OR ATTACK.

You seeing the trend here? I just pointed out one thing about every job in FFXI that would make a player want to play that job. They are things that make the class stand out from the others.

Now take a look at FFXIV classes. What do they have that makes them stand out from one another?

See my point yet?

[Cynric]

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Well to be honest I would have to really think hard about the balances between the job, keeping them at least somewhat even, while changing them around but keeping them in their spot. I'd like to be able to account for everything that would work with FFXIV. But well for me, at least based on our current job system style, I expected say, Gladiator to play like Paladin, then when advancing to Paladin gaining a new mechanic to make them function a little different where you could really feel that you changed your job, like say, (yes this is completely unbalanced and pointless) Paladin having a way to throw up a slight regen mechanic by playing a certain way or something.

Now as far as the WoW example, I actually know exactly what you mean and well, the point isn't to make it so unique that it has no place in endgame, the point is to just make it deviate from its base in a meaningful way. We are at the point in MMO's where there are clear character archetypes, and back in the day this just wasn't the case, so classes wound up more unique because we didn't have a standard of say "this is what makes a class a rogue/thief" the standard evolved over time from, they steal, to they use daggers, they dual wield, they do all of those things, they stealth, attack from behind, and now we have essentially a basic mold of what makes a scout type character what it is.

Like let's take a look at a basic class versus a class that has deviation for a moment from FFXIV itself.

Gladiator - You generate hate, you get hit, you pop a cool down, you do it all over again, and nothing changes when you change your job either, except you can wear holier looking armour.

Scholar- As an Arcanist your base is a DPS with healing utility, fully capable of healing in low level content, changing to scholar you get 2 different sets of pets, a new type of heal and a new style of management you didn't need to do with carbuncle. Scholar really stands out in FFXIV because it deviates quite a bit from its base as a healer by being a different type of healer and Adlo,Succor, Sacred Soil, Eos , Selene, along with the ability to throw out some half decent DPS really makes it pop out as non-standard while still being basic enough to understand just by reading skill descriptions.

But, as far as I'm concerned there are a huge amount of jobs that can be included into FFXIV, this version is barely a year old and still trying to grow and flesh itself out. With or without a rework, our current basic classes do have a place within the game, a couple of job patches down the line we might have tanks that are hard to play but very rewarding, but we'd still want a beginner friendly tank like Paladin for newer players to tanking. We already sort of saw this where players who had a hard time on Monk or Dragoon switched to Bard or another role because reacting, doing positions, managing a really needed buff, those things weren't fun to them or they felt they couldn't do it.

Now going by what I said I do really believe Summoner should be reworked to be different at least. There should be a basic DoT class, but there should also be a basic pet class or the pet mechanic of summoner should at least be fleshed out more.

Sorry to stray from the point a bit. Anyway all in all I believe there is no need to stray from basic in the case of current classes, because basic has a place, in 3 years when endgame is full of complex yet powerful classes, people will need to start somewhere, and all of these basic jobs are perfect for someone just starting out and even for a seasoned vet , if they enjoy just playing the class for what it is. Moving forward however, I do believe we can add a different level of difficulty or get a little out of the box with mechanics without making anything too silly. The real idea behind making a class unique from its base archetype is fleshing out what makes that archetype fun to begin with then challenging the player to perform, while blizzard just added resources to classes or changed specs(waaaaaay too much)up a bit. I feel like that's not really the right way to do something. But I will say that even though Rogue was a basic scout class, the combo points, and the energy made it stick out a bit from other scouts I've played in the past. That system didn't really change it much from it's base idea, but it made me as a player feel more interactive with my class and have something different to manage than when I usually play my thieves. That's why I see Monk as a step in the right direction, it's basic, but it has a mechanic that challenges the player to play Monk like a Monk. There could of been more to it. But for the sake of a game expecting plenty of new players. I'd love for these first classes to be what eases them into more difficult and less basic ones later on.

TL;DR : Sometimes complexity for complexity's sake isn't needed, while I personally wish the classes were a bit less basic, I'm very much okay with them being that way, as new players and players who don't want complex jobs do deserve to have classes to play. I'm sure we will get jobs that are pretty unique later on, we've only just finished our 1st year of 2.0 after all and we already have something like Ninja coming out, with classes like scholar and warrior already in the game. Basics are the fundamentals of everything your class will do, so you just need to make that a fun and unique experience for the player, even if at the end of the day it's still something basic.

[RiceisNice]

...

And that's the thing. We don't want things to be complex for the sake of being complex, but fun. I feel that ARR (for the most part) has pulled it off really well with regards to how each of the classes reaches their role's goal (dps, healing, tanking) without straying so far that it encouraged class stacking for certain encounters. I'm all for all for having classes having different mechanics if they are designed with it in mind and it works. (stances, aetherflow, positional, etc etc)


As far as job changes goes, I've always seen them as a "promotion" of sorts to the base class (essentially adding new abilities, not changing their whole class dynamic). I don't expect a paladin to play significantly different from a gladiator when you need to be a lvl 30 gladiator to attain paladin and it runs off gladiator's exp bar. Though I'd personally like to see some more reactive skills on the tanks in generals, something to encourage actually using shield swipe when it procs. Whether or not they're pulled off well for the theming (looking at you, BRD and SMN) is another issue (which is never addressed by OP and only by you to an extent up to now, so it doesn't really fit in the grand scheme of this topic.)

The way I see the basic, barebones of a class, is what sort of role they fit (the dps, ranged dps, healers, and tank). What sets them apart for me is how they achieve that; DRG and MNK have incredibly different mechancs with stances and comboing, ARC has the management of aetherflow vs BLM's astral/umbral pendulum. That's touching into the whole subjective thing on what makes a class unique or not, and we'd disagree there (I feel that they;re unique enough that they can be considered different classes, you and possibly the OP since he just jumped onto your post without any other support feel that they're close, or maybe too close, to the barebone of the roles.)

Ninja is most likely going to play different from MNK and DRG anyway in the same manner (different abilities, mudras, concepts), but all of those that are in place already between the MNK and DRG (stances versus combos, positional, lance vs fisticuffs), which OP seems unsatisfied with so I'm not sure if ninja is even going to suffice for his taste.

Though from the couple of recent posts, there's really no more point to continue on. The OP is still out for blood and throwing out retaliation to everyone that challenges him, let alone refuting points.

[Cynric]

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Oh yes most definitely they have accomplished it well enough in my opinion as well. While I have my own thoughts on summoner and bard that is indeed a different topic. Yeah I personally just want to see classes designed from the ground up with special systems in mind help flesh them out, but for a game that came out extremely fast on a re release by scrapping the entire old game and with a lot of new players in mind. I think the current jobs do fine anyway.

As for job changes, I mean more so I expected more of a job change, or advancement but you only get stats, and 5 job skills to replace the 5 cross class slots you lose. While yes going for 30 levels you are a Gladiator, I would still expect paladin to play like a Gladiator of course, but much more paladin like. This isn't the case though, A GLD and a PLD at 50 are very identical because they're the same thing, the only difference is Cross class skills vs job skills. I would of liked to be playing my job from 30 on and not be playing my class (traits for the class,skills from it instead of job) the entirety of me playing that class. It just makes the class change feel like it wasn't even needed. Just my opinion though and once again a separate topic.

Yeah and there's nothing wrong with seeing classes based on their roles rather than their archetype they perform(scout vs asssassin vs mage), and if you do that, like I noted in my first post, it's easy to see the classes are different enough from each other that you can't play them the same. In the end our current jobs just feel like simplified versions of classes I've played in other MMO's before, and while I'd like to see them maybe break the mold. I definitely understand why they couldn't right away. By bare bones I mean basically what they do is too simplified, as I said in my first post I think they're vastly different from each other, they just aren't anything special in terms of an MMO class, and I feel that because of how simplified they made them, some people might feel they aren't vastly different to each other. At least with the DPS classes. They're most definitely different than each other, but they also aren't particularly different from other standard MMO classes.

I personally look forward to Ninja because I main thieves and the like and have been waiting since beta for a class I usually play. Monk was enjoyable but even the constant positioning has lost its luster for me. I take a quick glance at my timers, I instantly know which out of my 9 possible skills I should use or which route to go through, GL is never an issue for me to keep up. Positioning was never anything new to me since I play thieves and assassins anyway, but it was definitely very fun while it lasted. Also you and someone else noted this but yes sometimes just the weapon is enough for people to play the class, or the lore, or the animation, and those I believe are all valid reasons .

Yes things could definitely calm down a bit.

[Gardes]

TL;DR : The classes aren't super unique but they aren't super similar, They're just mostly super basic MMO classes. Nothing special about them in general.

Sounds about right. Current cross class combinations also doesn't help. All TP using DPS have inner release, b4b, second wind, etc. All MP using DPS have raging and quelling strikes. Biggest issue for me though, with all the different mechanics and small differences, there no current class that I actually really like and want to play and I can only hope that whatever class they add after ninja will be to my liking.

Personally I would also like to see more ways to utilize the same resource (like a super heavy cost TP class that has to constantly manage TP instead of burning TP slowly and hitting invigorate as soon as you 400-500 tp or just burning MP fast and gaining back fast like blm) since new resource 'bars' seem unlikely. Having a special UI for special resources instead of just a numerical buff icon (like wrath and aetherflow) would be nice too. More ways to 'cast' a skill/spell would be nice too. This game doesn't really have a channeled spell, does it?

[RiceisNice]

Personally I would also like to see more ways to utilize the same resource (like a super heavy cost TP class that has to constantly manage TP instead of burning TP slowly and hitting invigorate as soon as you 400-500 tp or just burning MP fast and gaining back fast like blm)

You have to take into account sprinting and the results of that with a class that reliances on huge bursts of TP regeneration. It's not as apparent on casters since they can't really attack on the move, while the classes who can (the TP users) have reliance on TP and can't afford to sprint. Unless that class is also encumbered by cast times with TP...but imo that's just rehashing MP and isn't really anything unique to it. I'd rather see more of something like aetherflow or another stock mechanic.

[Estevo]

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Scootaloo you make good points, and you've said nothing wrong, the only thing you did wrong was decide to try and post feedback on these forums

I would suggest just avoiding posting on the forums for a while, see if the atmosphere changes, but chances are they won't, and it's just not worth the trouble.

I'm sure you know by now what I mean, the unending pattern of someone posting some sort of feedback that could very well better the game, and then the entire herd comes along and bashes your skull in for even considering something different, something that doesn't compute with the current game (which won't exist a few years down the line regardless, so jokes on them), and then you try to defend yourself, but they somehow turn it around and make you look like the bad guy.

It's honestly scary how predictable people are.

BTW Cynric knows what he's talking about, I agree with him wholeheartedly

[Brine_Gildchaff]

I'm sure you know by now what I mean, the unending pattern of someone posting actual relevant feedback that could better the game, and then the entire herd comes along and bashes your skull in for even considering something different

Yes. Because clearly nobody in the twelve pages posted so far has pointed out actually relevant objections to the OP's claims. Certainly none of them have taken the time and effort to explain why their suggestion of "feedback" is based on something that is just plain objectively WRONG.

[Dwill]

Scootaloo you make good points, and you've said nothing wrong, the only thing you did wrong was decide to try and post feedback on these forums

I would suggest just avoiding posting on the forums for a while, see if the atmosphere changes, but chances are they won't, and it's just not worth the trouble.

I'm sure you know by now what I mean, the unending pattern of someone posting actual relevant feedback that could better the game, and then the entire herd comes along and bashes your skull in for even considering something different, something that doesn't compute with the current game (which won't exist a few years down the line regardless, so jokes on them), and then you try to defend yourself, but they somehow turn it around and make you look like the bad guy.

It's honestly scary how predictable people are.

BTW Cynric knows what he's talking about, I agree with him wholeheartedly

Yes, you two are just martyrs. Not the fact that what you call "relevant feedback that could better the game" is just blatant criticism mixed with a whole bag of negativity, nor the fact that said feedback just shows a total ignorance of how the game actually works and refuse to acknowledge that your claims are based on said ignorance. Yes, you're just martyrs.

[Cynric]

BTW Cynric knows what he's talking about, I agree with him wholeheartedly

I honestly think the only reason most of our classes are so basic is because they wanted to have a new player friendly job meta for the re launch of the game. Based on what I've seen of Ninja, the original design of Warrior, Scholar, as well as the slightly unique feel of Monk. I'm sure they'll have less basic stuff eventually for our classes. But I'm not going to pretend like I don't see how bare bones our current jobs are. They just need some stuff added to flesh them out. But it wont be a skill, it'd have to be a mechanic that only that class deals with or works with. Like how Monks are separated by GL3, but it has to be more than just a simple buff/attack management IMO.

Also there was plenty of relevant feedback posted throughout this thread, A lot of it I actually echoed in my own post just with a lot more words and big comparison.