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  1. #21
    Player
    KingOfAbyss's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    996
    Character
    Abyss King
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by Defteros View Post
    I don't want a puppetmaster, i want a Beast Master ;___;
    As much as I would love to see one, the designers of characters and anything related seems to have come from the same cursus than mangaka's..

    They emphasize so much of their learning time making sure the characters are good looking enough, that they didn't have time or skipped the "let's draw animals" class..
    (0)

  2. #22
    Player
    Duelle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    3,965
    Character
    Duelle Urelle
    World
    Diabolos
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Aegis View Post
    Also, while it was certainly a less popular job everyone I know that played it to 75 absolutely loved it as much or more than their other jobs.
    So because you loved it, it has to absolutely be in the game....

    The thing about PUP is that it was mired by poor design and lack of balancing. For example, maneuvers wouldn't really work here because combat is faster than FFXI's (not to mention the concpet of maneuvers were sort of modified to create NIN mudras). Then comes the issue of how strong the master should be. PUP when originally implemented was very weak since their pet was supposed to be the stronger of the two. It was when they discovered the job as a whole was a joke that they decided to buff the master and give them access to the stronger HTH weapon skills. Valor Edge and the ranged one for a long while were useless next to the caster automaton, largely due to PUPs using ADA to get around the recast timer inherent to pets (this is one of the few instances where the job was competitive DPS-wise; exploiting the system to get around recast timers).

    PUP was essentially BST v2.0 community wise, and while some may be willing to sit through that for the sake of being different/special, it's not a good thing in the long run. You're welcome to give suggestions on how the job could work within the current game, within the current systems in place. I'm half tempted to cook up a suggestion myself just to see if the job can actually work and gauge how much the concept would have to change to be a non-joke job.
    (0)
    * The sad thing is that FFXIV turned RDM into a turret, and people think that's what it's supposed to be. It's supposed to combine sword and magic into something more, not spend the bulk of gameplay spamming spells and jump into melee for only 3 GCDs before scurrying back to the back line like good little casters.
    * Design ideas:
    Red Mage - COMPLETE (https://tinyurl.com/y6tsbnjh), Chemist - Second Pass (https://tinyurl.com/ssuog88), Thief - First Pass (https://tinyurl.com/vdjpkoa), Rune Fencer - First Pass (https://tinyurl.com/y3fomdp2)

  3. #23
    Player
    WellFooled's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Ul'dah
    Posts
    1,313
    Character
    Doranaux Wavemet
    World
    Goblin
    Main Class
    Gladiator Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Duelle View Post
    So because you loved it, it has to absolutely be in the game....
    This isn't what he said :P He was just stressing that it was a much loved class by those that played as it. In other words, it was a cult classic.

    The thing about PUP is that it was mired by poor design and lack of balancing...
    While I appreciate that Puppetmaster was a flawed class in FFXI, this has nothing to do with its possible design and inclusion in FFXIV. Every job that exists in FFXIV that also existed in FFXI is handled very differently. So the flaws from FFXI have no baring on what could happen in FFXIV.

    You're welcome to give suggestions on how the job could work within the current game, within the current systems in place. I'm half tempted to cook up a suggestion myself just to see if the job can actually work and gauge how much the concept would have to change to be a non-joke job.
    I would love to see what you'd cook up. There are a million ways that Puppetmaster could be designed for FFXIV, but so long as it stays true to the spirit of the class then I think Puppetmaster fans will be content. The purpose of this thread doesn't seem to me to be about the details, but rather the desire.

    I loved Puppetmaster. In fact, I think I loved it more than my main job. If Puppetmaster was added to FFXIV there's a good chance I would never touch my other jobs again. I wholeheartedly support Puppetmaster for FFXIV.
    (1)

  4. #24
    Player
    Aegis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    1,161
    Character
    Aegis Elisus
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Armorer Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Duelle View Post
    So because you loved it, it has to absolutely be in the game....
    Are you just looking for an argument? I never said anything to that effect, in fact, my first post in this thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by Aegis View Post
    PUP is too complex a job to be in XIV, or at least to be done properly.

    If BLU is too complex, PUP is even more so.

    They could introduce it as essentially an MP-less SMN, but it would be a shadow of its former self without the Puppet customisation options.
    I don't want an intricate, complex class to be simplified so much that it's not what it used to be. I feel the same way about BLU. I love both jobs, but I'd rather not play either than play a dumbed down version.
    (0)

  5. #25
    Player
    Felis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    12,287
    Character
    Skadi Felis
    World
    Ragnarok
    Main Class
    Pugilist Lv 70
    Maybe puppets that follow you around?
    (0)

  6. #26
    Player
    Aegis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    1,161
    Character
    Aegis Elisus
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Armorer Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Felis View Post
    Maybe puppets that follow you around?
    We have those. Mammets (there's like 4 of them, I think).

    I'd love to be able to tinker around and customise a puppet to do what I want, play with the AI etc like you could in XI. Like Wellfooled said, I would absolutely ignore my other classes to do so.
    (2)

  7. #27
    Player
    Duelle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    3,965
    Character
    Duelle Urelle
    World
    Diabolos
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 80

    Rebuilding from scratch

    Okay, so I'll put my money where my mouth is, and as such here is a concept for PUP. Keep in mind that these are the ideals I built my suggestion around:

    - PUP's core concept is that of a melee fighter with a mechanical pet
    - The mechanical pet should have some level of customization options, but should still remain balanced compared to SMN and other future pet jobs
    - The master's actions need to have some sort of connection to the pet

    Since we have a thing for PGL leading to PUP, I'll use that as my base.

    Puppetmaster

    Like in many other parts of the world, the ancient noble houses of Radz-at-han were subject to power plays and concealed plots against each other to gain imperial favor. This unspoken tradition between the houses led to the creative use and placement of agents, spies and assassins as each family observed their would-be adversaries.

    The noble house of Salaheem is best remembered from this period because of their unique employ of spies in the form of meek court jesters and entertainers. Developing their craft while infiltrating the inner circles of the noble houses, these so-called puppetmasters would entertain the crowds at court while extracting information and carrying out orders from their superiors in concealment.

    Though the house of Salaheem eventually fell into ruin after the Fifth Umbral Era, the art cultivated by them has remained alive in the wandering entertainers that roam Hydaelin to this day.

    Mechanics

    Equipping the PUP job crystal places a penalty to STR and attack power. PUP loses Greased Lightning and instead gains the buff Impulse Signal when using their skills. Impulse Signal is consumed when the ability Direct Imput is used, allowing the player to command the mammet to perform a specific action determined by the form the player is in when Direct Imput is used (which means Direct Imput used while in Opo-opo Stance would yield a different ability than DI used while in Coeurl Stance).

    The mammet has its own equipment screen, and the pet bar would show an option to dismiss the mamett, switch modes, and list the abilities the mammet has access to based on the attachments equipped on them.

    Because PUP does not have greased lightning, the goal here is to have the damage split between master and pet make up for that. Keep also in mind that thus PUP is inherently much slower than PGL and MNK.

    Abilities
    30 Activate: Summons your mammet. 7 second cast time.
    30 Direct Imput: Consumes Impulse Signal to command your mammet to perform an action. 5 second cooldown.
    35 Maintenance: Restores 15% of your mammet HP. Channeled ability. 8 seconds.
    40 Distract: Order your mammet to distract target enemy, incapacitating them for 10 seconds (5 in PvP). 45 second cooldown.
    45 Stringing Pummel: Delivers an attack with a total potency of 150. Commands your mammet to perform a special attack. Consumes Impulse Signal. 3 minute cooldown.
    50 Overdrive: Increases damage dealt by your mammet and makes it immune to crowd control abilities. 15 second duration. 6 minute cooldown.

    The Mammet

    Instead of automaton frames, the mammet has two modes the player can switch between. Each is treated as a gear set, and both have their own purpose.

    Valor Edge Mode
    Melee Mammet
    Default Attack: String Clip
    Stringing Pummel Attack: Mighty Scissors
    Can be modified to tank for the PUP while soloing or do melee DPS.

    Stormwaker Mode
    Caster Mammet
    Default Attack: Jolt (2.5 second cast time)
    Stringing Pummel Attack: Burst
    Can be modified to heal the PUP while soloing or focus on doing magic DPS.

    Attachments

    My suggestion for attachments is to segregate them by body part. Mammets can have up to 5 attachments on them at any time. Head, Main Arm, Off-Arm and two Auxiliary attachments. Attachments would be broken down by category to avoid overpowered combinations. In some cases, attachments would have to be locked into specific modes for the same purpose. The following are samples, and I understand they may not be all that balanced, but this is for display purposes.

    Head
    Flash Bulb: Requires Valor Edge Mode. Grants the mammet the ability to cast the spell Flash. Requires Coeurl stance.
    Lightning Rod: Requires Stormwaker Mode. Grants the mammet the ability to increase the potency of the next spell cast. Requires Opo-opo stance.
    Smoke Screen: Grants the mammet the ability to shed enmity. Requires Raptor stance.

    Main Arm
    Heavy-duty Coil: Requires Valor Edge Mode. Grants the mammet use of the ability Heavy Cut on their target. Requires Coeurl Stance.
    Tazer: Requires Stormwaker Mode. Grants the mammet the ability to cast Jolt II. Requires Raptor stance.
    First Aid Kit: Requires Stormwaker Mode. Grants the mammet the ability to cast a healing spell on their master. Requires Opo-opo stance.

    Off-Arm
    Buckler Mounting: Requires Valor Edge Mode. Grants the mammet the ability to block with a shield and use the ability Buckler Swipe.
    Hidden Blade: Grants the mammet the ability to place a bleed effect on its target. Requires Coeurl stance. Requires melee range.
    Poison Dart: Grants the mammet the ability to place a poison effect on its target. Requires Raptor Stance. 20 yalm range.

    Auxiliary 1 & 2
    Coiler: increases skill speed.
    Rewinder: increases spell speed.
    Bright Bulb: Increases enmity generated.
    Stealth Screen: Reduces enmity generated.
    Self-repair Unit: Restores 10% of mammet's health when master uses the ability Second Wind.

    As seen above, head, main arm and off-arm attachments grant abilities. Auxiliary attachments grant bonuses depending on where the player wants to take their mammet. Thus the mammet gets a total of three abilities, not including the mode-specific ability that is only usable when the PUP uses Stringing Pummel.

    ---------------------

    The bottom line with this suggestion is that PUP may be possible but the master would need much more control on their pet in this case. I did think of turning the stance bonuses (raptor, opo-opo, coeurl) into the equivalent of maneuvers, but that creates too drastic a change within the design of pugilist while leaving the mammet to not be that useful since there would be an arbitrary time between its actions. Combine that with the general wonkyness of AI as a whole and there would be some issues in the harder content. Not to mention that I'm already pushing it by getting rid of Greased Lightning. And now, some notes.

    - Something that isn't clear in this suggestion but would like to see implemented would be the mammet having their own ability combos. For example, String Clip is supposed to combo into Heavy Cut, but it's not really illustrated in my suggestion.
    - Something else I was thinking about was having the ability attachments give other things like AoE attacks and so on. Granted, this would mean a PUP with their mammet equipped with AoE attacks would be perfect for speed runs, but I'm not sure if the negatives outweigh the positives in this case.
    - An alternative to having to input commands to the mammet every five seconds would be to have the mammet act on its own like the chocobo, but the ability in question is put on something like a 20 second cooldown when you force the mammet to use it.
    - Since mammet frames are not being used for gameplay, I would want to make the frames more for vanity. Add a leviathan frame, a behemoth frame, an odin frame and so on. At least this way people can personalize their mammets.
    - Going by this, when the mammet is in Valor Edge mode it's right arm is replace by a blade. When in Stormwaker mode the right arm is replaced by an arm extension into a wand or a spiky scepter.
    - Changing mammet attachments outside of the capital cities would put Activate on a 45 second cooldown. Mammet modes and attachments cannot be changed while in combat.
    (1)
    * The sad thing is that FFXIV turned RDM into a turret, and people think that's what it's supposed to be. It's supposed to combine sword and magic into something more, not spend the bulk of gameplay spamming spells and jump into melee for only 3 GCDs before scurrying back to the back line like good little casters.
    * Design ideas:
    Red Mage - COMPLETE (https://tinyurl.com/y6tsbnjh), Chemist - Second Pass (https://tinyurl.com/ssuog88), Thief - First Pass (https://tinyurl.com/vdjpkoa), Rune Fencer - First Pass (https://tinyurl.com/y3fomdp2)

  8. #28
    Player

    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    576
    Quote Originally Posted by Aegis View Post
    Yeah, like they patched out Titan tanking Ramuh.

    This game needs at some point to start getting complicated, to start allowing players to 'break it' slightly through unforseen consequences. They need to start letting some control slip to players. I don't want to hear about the party that managed to squeeze enough DPS to beat x boss. I wanna hear about the one SCH killing him over 4 hours, or the SMN duo pet-swapping to a win. If it's ridiculously easy, then patch it out. If it showed skill and cunning let it stand.
    They already nerfed Sustain to the point where it's even harder to finish the SMN Job quest.
    (0)

  9. #29
    Player
    faris's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    U'ldah
    Posts
    594
    Character
    Est Mist
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Thaumaturge Lv 100
    I would agree, but the joy of PUP was losing yourself in the job's complexities.

    XIV would murder that by making the job too simple.
    (2)

  10. #30
    Player Scootaloo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    154
    Character
    Scootaloo Dash
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Arcanist Lv 50
    This won't happen because being unique in an MMO is past trend guys.

    EVERYONE BEING THE SAME IS THE THING FOR MMOS NOW AT DAYS! DIDN'T YA KNOW?!

    I mean just look at FFXIV! Its so awesome that I can't see any major differences between my monk and my dragoon aside from their flashy weapon skill graphics!

    /sarcasm
    (2)

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