[Dev 1082] Summoner Design Concept

[Perrin_Aybarra]

@OP
I wouldn't hold my breath. I remember that, when directly confronted with that question during an interview, they mentioned that in Eorzea the Elemental Gods play a far too important role to be implemented in any way similar to how they were implemented in FFXI.

I think a lot of players would like to have a SMN job in the game and really it would be in SE's best interest to go that route and make it available if they didn't plan it already. They can just make it so that SMN can call a weaker version of the Avatar (which would explain why multiple SMN can summon the same avatar at the same time) but I think they really need to make it a playable job.

I personally like Airget's ideas.

[AreeyaJaidee]

As I've said in every single "Summoner please!" thread, with how the lore of the game and the main story is there cannot be a pet class summoner. The Primals are not subservient in any way, shape or form. In fact others worship them and do their bidding. So far they've given us a very big "we don't give a shit about you" impression. There's no way they could possibly be coerced into doing our bidding as Adventurers. Also not to mention the fact that they require elemental crystals to be brought into this world for any given time.

Sorry, Summoner as a pet class just wouldn't work with this game unless they completely scrapped the entire story and all lore concerning them and re-did it from the start.

Edit: The only thing I think would work and not interfere with how the Primals are is a system like FF7's for example where the creature is summoned, uses a single gigantic attack and then leaves.

By that rule of thumb SMN cannot be a job at all: not even a nonpet job that only casts single instance spells.

So why did SE say SMN would be in FFXIV as a playable job If we cannot control them in any manner?

Your logic seems contradictory

[Arcell]

By that rule of thumb SMN cannot be a job at all: not even a nonpet job that only casts single instance spells.

So why did SE say SMN would be in FFXIV as a playable job If we cannot control them in any manner?

Your logic seems contradictory

I'm just going with how the lore is. It could be slightly plausible that they would come out to do a single attack in return for the crystals required to bring them into our world momentarily. There's no way they could be pets walking around on leashes for any and all adventurers who feel like it, it's far too subservient for them.

Unless I suppose the summons they're referring to are the Twelve, or at least not the Primals. There are a few belief systems going around in Eorzea, with the Primals being the only ones we've seen manifest.

I just can't see the Primals at least ever obeying much of anything we say, though one or two things here and there is slightly more plausible. Spoiler: Hell even Ifrit gives us orders when we meet him and Leviathan is out there killing people and destroying ships. How would you propose we tame them?

I'm not against having summoner as a class/job as long as it makes sense with the world/story.

[AreeyaJaidee]

Not sure if anyone will care, but I figured I'd post some ideas I had a while back anyways.
So...WALL O TEXT GO

Think of the summoner and their avatar as "connected":

- No cooldown on avatars recast times. Because cooldowns are always the poorest and easiest balance solution.

- No perpetuation cost of any kind. Players like keeping their pets out.

- 8 or so second cast time to summon. This allows the summoner to switch avatars in group settings if needed, but make the proposition a little risky because it's effectively the summoner switching their role, which is explained below.

- Each avatar specializes in a role, such as tanking, damage dealing, crowd control, healing, etc. The summoner is basically a jack of all trades, but master of none. So a summoner won't be quite as effective as jobs that specialize in a certain role, but they'll be adequate.

- While an avatar is out, the avatar will gain access to their own specific abilities as well as ones set from other classes. The summoner doesn't use those other abilities, the avatar does. Meaning yes, the summoner themselves can't really do anything except run around and cast through their avatar. But if there is no avatar summoned, then the summoner can use those abilities. There will be some restrictions on avatars casting another class's elemental abilities, though.

- While an avatar is out, it's HP and MP percentages are linked to the summoner's. So if Titan gets down to 1000/2000 HP (50% HP), the summoner's HP will also match 50% and vice versa. This is used to prevent "kite anything forever" techniques, which is why summoner was so hard to balance in FFXI. This also means that if a summoner and their avatar get hit with an AoE, it's effectively double damage. So it's key that summoners stay as safe as possible.

- The summoner can be healed while an avatar is out, which will also heal an avatar, but the percentage of HP gained is relative to the larger max HP. So if your avatar has twice as much HP as you, and you're healed for 200, the avatar receives the full 200 HP back while the summoner receives 100 HP. Once again, it's to keep percentages the same.

- When an avatar is summoned, it will have the same percentage of HP and MP that the summoner currently has. It will also have any buffs currently on the summoner.

- If the avatar or summoner receives a buff, the buff is applied to the other party. So if an avatar receives stoneskin, so will the summoner, and vice versa.

- No other job/class can summon avatars. That should be pretty self-explanatory.

And that's about all I can remember for now. I don't think I've ever said "vice versa" this much in my life.

Those are actually some really good points.

Sadly seems most ppl posting today either hate SMN, are jealous of SMN, or hate pet jobs

[AreeyaJaidee]

I'm just going with how the lore is. It could be slightly plausible that they would come out to do a single attack in return for the crystals required to bring them into our world momentarily. There's no way they could be pets walking around on leashes for any and all adventurers who feel like it, it's far too subservient for them.

Unless I suppose the summons they're referring to are the Twelve, or at least not the Primals. There are a few belief systems going around in Eorzea, with the Primals being the only ones we've seen manifest.

I just can't see the Primals at least ever obeying much of anything we say, though one or two things here and there is slightly more plausible. Spoiler: Hell even Ifrit gives us orders when we meet him and Leviathan is out there killing people and destroying ships. How would you propose we tame them?

I'm not against having summoner as a class/job as long as it makes sense with the world/story.

Tame?

Via a quest of course: an epic battle per each showing the players have enough zeal to defeat a primal and earn it's respect thus granting the SMN a special right amongst the Primal.

That stuff is easy and could give us some ridiculous awesome fights in the near future

[SuzakuCMX]

Tame?

Via a quest of course: an epic battle per each showing the players have enough zeal to defeat a primal and earn it's respect thus granting the SMN a special right amongst the Primal.

That stuff is easy and could give us some ridiculous awesome fights in the near future

Kinda ruins it though. The primals are supposed to be badass, actual gods, and now every single player in the game has the ability to tame them and make them their pet?

That makes me very sad :/

[Perrin_Aybarra]

I'm just going with how the lore is. It could be slightly plausible that they would come out to do a single attack in return for the crystals required to bring them into our world momentarily. There's no way they could be pets walking around on leashes for any and all adventurers who feel like it, it's far too subservient for them.

Unless I suppose the summons they're referring to are the Twelve, or at least not the Primals. There are a few belief systems going around in Eorzea, with the Primals being the only ones we've seen manifest.

I just can't see the Primals at least ever obeying much of anything we say, though one or two things here and there is slightly more plausible. Spoiler: Hell even Ifrit gives us orders when we meet him and Leviathan is out there killing people and destroying ships. How would you propose we tame them?

I'm not against having summoner as a class/job as long as it makes sense with the world/story.

I seem to recall that in most FF when it comes to summon you actually have to fight it before you can make it do your biddings. spoiler: Yes Ifrit orders us around but if we beat his ass and show him who is boss, he might just come to respect us and come forth when we summon. Could cost us crystals to summon them.

[Perrin_Aybarra]

Kinda ruins it though. The primals are supposed to be badass, actual gods, and now every single player in the game has the ability to tame them and make them their pet?

That makes me very sad :/

It could be that you don't actual summon the primal itself but a weaker avatar of him. Would explain why many SMN can have the same avatar out and their weakness compared to the actual primal.

[AreeyaJaidee]

Kinda ruins it though. The primals are supposed to be badass, actual gods, and now every single player in the game has the ability to tame them and make them their pet?

That makes me very sad :/

Either way their become subservient then. So that means you dont want SMN as a playable?

Either way youre still commanding them whether it's as a spell or a pet; all ridiculous RPness aside atleast the summon walking around with the SMN doesn't brand it as a genie in a bottle concept; if the primal is out and about it's more existing than just being a epic spell

[SuzakuCMX]

It could be that you don't actual summon the primal itself but a weaker avatar of him. Would explain why many SMN can have the same avatar out and their weakness compared to the actual primal.

I'd rather have us be the avatars and then be able to summon them for their ultimate attack though :S

EDIT: No, we are entreating them to help us. In X the relationship between a Summoner and an Aeon was like a lover's bond. Pre-VIII and in IX, they were just "help me out with a huge attack plox." In X you could control them, but they were also not gods (they were just a collection of spirits if I recall correctly). In XII, they weren't gods, either, they were just powerful beings that rebelled against the gods and joined the players because it was the only way they could get out of the Mist. In XIII....fuck XIII, damn it.

In this game, they are actual gods.

EDIT2: Oh and "ridiculous RPness" in an MMORPG? Lmao.