[Dev 1082] Summoner Design Concept

[AreeyaJaidee]

Main Topic: How and Why do Summon(er)s fit into Eorzea?

There is a great chance that if you have ever played another Final Fantasy game then you know what a Summoner is. You know it is usually a "sacred" magic used by various characters to call forth Dieties in some form or another. These Dieties have varying strengths and weakness based on their elemental composition.

Pretty straight forward stuff right? Final Fantasy has Summons and Summoners. Final Fantasy 2-13 had summons.

Now look at Final Fantasy XIV (14). If you scour the "official" forums you will be hardpressed to find any confirmation from the Devs about the subject of Summoner as a playable Job in FFXIV. The majority of threads regarding Summoners which have Dev post presence are usually beyond none informative to the point that it seems the Devs are literally avoiding the subject all together. They (the devs) either change the subject or give the nonsensically common "We don\\'t know but we will ask.". Yet still no results; Still no answers.

Maybe SE is waiting on us to do their homework for them: So let\\'s get together and in a non trolling manner Creat FFXIV\\'s Summoner Job.

The Requirements:
- SMN will be a Pet Job (Elemental Gods will be Summoned and controlled by the Summoner)
- Summons will look epic
- There will be quests to obtain each Summon individually. The majority of these should be moderately difficult to complete. A few Summons should be very difficult to obtain.
- There will be a relationship/affinity between the SMN and the Summon. This relationship dictates the affinity or bond between the SMN and his Summon. It will effect such things as: Summon spell execution speed; Summon ability execution speed; Summon stat strength; Summon spell failure rate; Summon ability failure rate.
- There will be Pet specific Tags and Macros:

Tags
<mark> (allows a subtarget like cursor for setting a waypoint over traversable land)
<pethp>(pet\\'s own hp)
<petmp>(pet\\'s own mp)
<petst>(subtarget selection for pet)
<petct>(pet\\'s current target; displays the current mob pet is attacking)
<petlastst>(the last sub target of the pet)

Macros
/pattack /patk (tells pet to attack the <tag>)
/pdefend /pdef (tells pet to stop attacking and assume a defensive stature)
/preturn /pret (tells pet to return to master\\'s <pos>. Incurrs enmity on master when used within close range of mobs which have enmity on pet)
/pac Ability Name (tells pet to perform the specified action)
/pemote /pem Sit/Dance/etc. (tells pet to perform the specified emote)
/pmove (tells pet to move to a targetted point; targetting will require a subtarget like marker which can only be placed on traversible ground. This will follow the same physicla restraints as PCs)
/pstay (tells a pet to stay at its current location)

- There will be gear in various tiers to enhance particular aspects of SMN: Spell cast time down; Summon DMG mods; Summon Stat mods STR-PIE; SMN attack speed; etc.

Summon mechanics
- Each Summon is a seperate spell with its own recast timer: 15 minutes cooldown
- Summons will follow the Summoner\\'s pathing and match their walking/running animation state at a rate of speed realistic to the Summons size and character: Titan would be a tad slower walking and running than the Summoner
- Each Summon will gain individual experience points when an enemy is defeated and the summon is "out".
- Each Summon will level up independently at half the required experience points per level as PCs
- Summons will gain their own unique abilities as the level up. The abilities will be seperated as Offensive and Defensive abilities. Some abilities will be AoE others will be single target.
- Summons can gain and loose enmity
- Summons can aggro mobs via all the same triggers as players
- Summons will utilize a new UI widget for Pet Options (can be mapped in keymapping config window):
^-- This UI widget would appear also when your current Job is a pet Job and you select a mob. Selecting a mob would make the UI Widget popup directly to the right or left of the mob.
Attack * * * *(Commands pet to attack the selected mob)
Abilities * *(Displays submenu of available/learned abilities to use on the selected mob)
Spells * * * *(Displays a submenu of available/learned spells to use on the selected mob)
Move * * * *(Commands mob to move to the selected mob)
Stay * * * *(Commands mob to stop all actions near the selected mob)
Stats * * * *(Stats menu would show the Summon\\'s stats as well as information on the number of mobs killed)
- Summons will remain "out" based on the difference between the SMN and the Summon\\'s Level or until the Summon is defeated i.e. its HP reaches 0.

Summon Time = Max SMN LVL - Current SMN LVL / Max Cooldown x 60 Seconds + Max Summon LVL - Current Summon LVL / Max Cooldown x 60 Seconds

LVL 50 SMN w/ LVL 50 Summon: 50 - 50 / 15 x 60 = 900 + 50 - 50 / 15 x 60 = 1800 Seconds (30 Minutes)
LVL 50 SMN w/ LVL 20 Summon: 50 - 50 / 15 x 60 = 900 + 50 - 20 / 15 x 60 = 930 Seconds (15 Minutes 30 Seconds)
(NOTE: 5 Minutes is the lowest threshold for how long a Summon can be out.)

SMN Mechanics
- Summoner should have "Bond" and "Immolation" abilities:

Bond Abilities
- HP Bond * *(real time HP drain from Summon to SMN/<t>/<st>: HP/tick for xx seconds)
- MP Bond * *(real time MP drain from Summon to SMN/<t>/<st>: MP/tick for xx seconds)
- TP Bond * *(real time TP drain from Summon to SMN/<t>/<st>: TP/tick for xx seconds)
- Enmity Bond * *(real time Enmity transfer from Summon to SMN/<t>/<st>: enmity/tick for xx seconds)

Immolation Abilities
- HP Immolate * * * *(real time HP drain from SMN to Summon: HP/tick for xx seconds)
- MP Immolate * * * *(real time MP drain from SMN to Summon: MP/tick for xx seconds)
- TP Immolate * * * *(real time TP drain from SMN to Summon: TP/tick for xx seconds)
- Enmity Immolate * *(real time Enmity transfer from SMN to Summon: enmity/tick for xx seconds)

Gameplay Examples:
You begin casting Ifrit\\'s Calling.
[Once spell completes Ifrit falls to the ground nearest you like a burning meteor. Ifrit stands from a hunched crouch and looks about his new surroundings. Ifrit sees you and paces nearby with a menacing scowl.]
In this instance let\\'s say that Ifrit is LVL 32.
Playing around with a few options you could use the pet commands to manipulate your Summon:

/pmove <me> * * * *(Ifrit moves towards you stopping at about .5 of his character model radius so as to avoid collision. Works as a follow type command.)
/pstay * * * * * *(Instead of following you, now Ifrit will stay put even if you run/walk away.)
/pmove <mark> * * * *(A subtarget cursor appears over the ground before you. You move the cursor to its max range, mage casting range, then you click the confirm button. Ifrit begans to make his way to the marker point you designated.)
/pmove Player Name * *(Same concept as the <me> tag. This will allow the SMN to set a Summon on a sort of Gaurd type status for the player the Summon is following.)
/pret <me> * * * *(Would prompt Ifrit to return to the psecified tag or name.)
/pret Player Name

Some slightly advanced stuff:

Let\\'s say you wanted to have Ifrit pull aggro for your grind party.
/pattack <st> * *(You select a mob nearby and command Ifrit to go attack it.)
[Ifrit stomps over to the mob and bashes it with his physical + fire magic based damage.]
/pret <me>/<mark> (Commands the pet to return to the specified tag target; thus pulling the mob with it.)
/pdef (Commands the pet to assume a defense stance.)
/ac Enmity Bond <st>/The Tank (This would allow the SMN to select a tank to throw the Summon\\'s acquired hate to.)

(W)ork (I)n (P)rogress

[Sypherblade]

interesting ideas you have here.

smn would prolly be the hardest kind of class to balance with the other classes due to its hybrid nature. If it was able to heal/buff/deal damage/debuff/possibly tank? If they do create this as a class they need to make its roll focused on just one or two of these things so it doesn't become over powered or under powered by other classes....

just look at the mess SE did with SMN in FFXI....Im sure ppl will argue this...

[Perrin_Aybarra]

I love where you are going with this but like Sypher said they need to focus their role and not let them be jacks of all trade master of none like in FFXI.

Either make them full fledge DD/crowd control/debuff OR Healing/Support/Off tanking. Not everything depending on the summons so that they are overpowered and then nerfed to the ground and bad at everything.

To bring up the idea of mastering, this could be a good opportunity to apply it. Like you decide to get the SMN job but you get to master either the DD side of it or the Heal/Buff side of it. So you can have DD summoners and Healing/support Summoners. Always with the option to go through a quest to unmaster and change path if you decide you don't like it.

Each summons could have various DD, Crowd control, heal, Buffs, Debuffs bloodpacts (for need of a better name) but depending on what path you chose you are effective in only those you master.

[Sypherblade]

To bring up the idea of mastering, this could be a good opportunity to apply it. Like you decide to get the SMN job but you get to master either the DD side of it or the Heal/Buff side of it. So you can have DD summoners and Healing/support Summoners. Always with the option to go through a quest to unmaster and change path if you decide you don't like it.

Each summons could have various DD, Crowd control, heal, Buffs, Debuffs bloodpacts (for need of a better name) but depending on what path you chose you are effective in only those you master.

This could be interesting... maybe group the summons together in the story... like have aggressive summons like ifrit shiva bahamut.....and support group like carbuncle leviathan and pheniox.... they could be conflicting sides in the storyline....one hell bent on destroying the world and one that protects it.... pick a side or something

[AreeyaJaidee]

interesting ideas you have here.

smn would prolly be the hardest kind of class to balance with the other classes due to its hybrid nature. If it was able to heal/buff/deal damage/debuff/possibly tank? If they do create this as a class they need to make its roll focused on just one or two of these things so it doesn't become over powered or under powered by other classes....

just look at the mess SE did with SMN in FFXI....Im sure ppl will argue this...

Yes. People always argue everything

On the same note: Few people would argue a overpowered NIN job or some other evasion DD. Don't start flaming mages or pet classes ppl They deserve a spot in the limelight too!

Please focus on the design and let SE do the number crunching for balances n such.

Most pet classes are multipurpose like this; they offer excellent solo play and provide possibilities for more difficult bosses n dungeons in need of extreme crowd control.

In short: there are pros and cons to every job. This is just a suggestion to SE. Mages and pet jobs usually get left on the wayside. This is their chance to shine too.

[AreeyaJaidee]

I love where you are going with this but like Sypher said they need to focus their role and not let them be jacks of all trade master of none like in FFXI.

Either make them full fledge DD/crowd control/debuff OR Healing/Support/Off tanking. Not everything depending on the summons so that they are overpowered and then nerfed to the ground and bad at everything.

To bring up the idea of mastering, this could be a good opportunity to apply it. Like you decide to get the SMN job but you get to master either the DD side of it or the Heal/Buff side of it. So you can have DD summoners and Healing/support Summoners. Always with the option to go through a quest to unmaster and change path if you decide you don't like it.

Each summons could have various DD, Crowd control, heal, Buffs, Debuffs bloodpacts (for need of a better name) but depending on what path you chose you are effective in only those you master.

I agree: i was thinking the summons should excel at different roles. They can all have the same pet commands but for example Titan would have more physical def than Shiva thus making him a tank candidate.

You have to remember as well: these summons will have to be earned via difficult to hard quests. And after that fact each summon has to be lvld up in order for it to be more effective.

In my opinion the above layers offer an acceptable degree of extensive time and skill required to play SMN effective. Thus no SMN would have to be the same: i might lvl my tank summon more and understand it's mechanics more than my magic DD summon

[Perrin_Aybarra]

I agree: i was thinking the summons should excel at different roles. They can all have the same pet commands but for example Titan would have more physical def than Shiva thus making him a tank candidate.

You have to remember as well: these summons will have to be earned via difficult to hard quests. And after that fact each summon has to be lvld up in order for it to be more effective.

In my opinion the above layers offer an acceptable degree of extensive time and skill required to play SMN effective. Thus no SMN would have to be the same: i might lvl my tank summon more and understand it's mechanics more than my magic DD summon

Yeah, I love the idea to have to level each summons individualy and I like that you went through the trouble of figuring out a formula for the time the summon gets to stay out.

The only problem I see is that with time, a summoner could very well have all the summons to max level and be excellent in any aspect of it calling for people to cry and bring the neft bat to the SMN so that they don't excel at anything and are merely somewhat OK in any aspect like FFXI (not counting the 2hr)

I see 2 solutions:

#1: mastering only of one aspect DD/Debuff or Heal/Support so the summoner could excel in one aspect but not both. Letting the SMN choose the way he wants to play and not forced into a role.

#2: ALL summons are sharing the same summoning cooldown, 15 min in your exemple. That would make so the summoner cannot switch summon on a spin and would need to stick with the same summon for at least 15 minutes. That way it would be OK for a SMN to be Excellent with every summon since anyways they would be limited with their summoning Cooldown. The cons for this though that I can see is that if you click the wrong summon in error you are stuck with it for 15min and also I can see people crying that summoner would be able to accomplish anything and fit any role and be excellent at it and cry that is still not fair. (people are very sensitive that way)

[AreeyaJaidee]

This could be interesting... maybe group the summons together in the story... like have aggressive summons like ifrit shiva bahamut.....and support group like carbuncle leviathan and pheniox.... they could be conflicting sides in the storyline....one hell bent on destroying the world and one that protects it.... pick a side or something

Hmm that would be neat

Great positive feedback guys! Good to see other SMN enthusiasts giving a contribution

[Winterclaw]

wrong tag, 1082 is for mounts, not summoners.


Anyways, I've said it before and I'll say it again, summoners should be crossed with blue mages for FF14. Basically whenever you get a summon, you also get an ability related to it. I'm not sure that they should cost MP to keep out like they did in FF11; maybe disabling the icon until 60 seconds after it dies or for 60 second after you send it off should be enough.

Summon mechanics
- Each Summon is a seperate spell with its own recast timer: 15 minutes cooldown
- Summons will follow the Summoner\\'s pathing and match their walking/running animation state at a rate of speed realistic to the Summons size and character: Titan would be a tad slower walking and running than the Summoner
- Each Summon will gain individual experience points when an enemy is defeated and the summon is "out".
- Each Summon will level up independently at half the required experience points per level as PCs

-bad idea
-okay but the summon should wander around or stick with its own pathing routine.
-bad idea, summon's level should be your level as a summoner
-no


When you've got a summon active, you probably should have an interface just for it (a la guild wars heroes) and have some ability to tell it where to go. Another thing is in a number of MMOs pet classes tend to suck for some reason or another. I think the devs have been wavering on summoners because they'd think that a pet would make a summoner too powerful. If that's the case, they have a point. Or if they nerf the aeon too much, and then the class is useless.

Anyways, until SE can get conjs and thaus right, I don't want them to release summoners.

[Esk]

I think That choosing a side with Job could be an interesting way to go:
(as semi master of all wont end well, it'll be op or nurfed back and 4th forever)
- Summoners - DPS/Buffer or Healer/CC
- Dragoon - Pure melee DPS or Elemental DPS (Or Dps/CC?)

Or Go with the mix jobs and choose (waste of jobs imo id prefer to see them all lol)
- Black Mage Or Time Mage . (DPS or CC)
- Dark Knight or Paladin (DPS/CC or DPS/Healer)

You could easily take a lot of jobs down more then one path, ok some would just be differeing forms of DPS and so on but still it would mean noeveryone is the same when they are X class/Job.
People making the class/character more their own has got to be a good thing imo.

edit: sorry went a little off topic kinda but your post and the comments got me thinking.