What's with the Early Pull Brigade?

[Bladeglory]

-snip-

I don't know which is stranger. Intention mattering in game design (Turn 2 Rot method anyone?) or cooperation being bad because other content has caps.

I wouldn't say unreasonable so much as... a waste of potential. Like not carpooling with your coworkers or insisting on buying from a more expensive vending machine. It just doesn't make sense to me. (I'd like to add that I'm very apprehensive about social interaction and downright terrified of PuGs... yet now that I've tried it, it's great)

[JustPlainLucas]

Had one of those instances where I was shouting for an invite for an S that was up but no one would invite. They kept screaming at me, "CHECK PF NOOB!" Cept, all t he PFs were locked out except for healers and tanks. So, when I got there, I pulled the S myself. Sure, I only got 5 seals, but dammit if it didn't feel good to initiate the hunt. Oh, and just about everyone was going "Pulled early! RESET! RESET!" Yet, no one called a time! Bitching about early pulling when people pull before someone's announced time is one thing, but it's even worse when there's no time called and whoever pulls it gets accused of "early pulling". It's really quite annoying.

[ispano]

Had one of those instances where I was shouting for an invite for an S that was up but no one would invite. They kept screaming at me, "CHECK PF NOOB!" Cept, all t he PFs were locked out except for healers and tanks. So, when I got there, I pulled the S myself. Sure, I only got 5 seals, but dammit if it didn't feel good to initiate the hunt. Oh, and just about everyone was going "Pulled early! RESET! RESET!" Yet, no one called a time! Bitching about early pulling when people pull before someone's announced time is one thing, but it's even worse when there's no time called and whoever pulls it gets accused of "early pulling". It's really quite annoying.

Heh, this is what everyone leaves out. You want to participate, you have to follow the zerg's rules. Not to mention they only want you on a tank or healer, sorry no DD allowed! THAT is poor play if anything else.

[ZReport]

Hunts was a good idea, but implementation and reward ratio sucked badly. It's made for so many entitled players who makes the game have a bad atmosphere overall.

One can only hope 3rd Turn of coil will invalidate much of the need for Hunts.

[JustPlainLucas]

Heh, this is what everyone leaves out. You want to participate, you have to follow the zerg's rules. Not to mention they only want you on a tank or healer, sorry no DD allowed! THAT is poor play if anything else.

Granted I could have swapped to tank or healer, but I actually like damaging them, not trying to spam Flash or Overpower or Medica all the damn time. I was actually more happy to nuke the crap out of it for only 5 seals than I was to be in a namby pamby group of nothing but tanks and healers to get full credit. People are forgetting what fun is thanks to all these damn hunts.

[Bladeglory]

Heh, this is what everyone leaves out. You want to participate, you have to follow the zerg's rules. Not to mention they only want you on a tank or healer, sorry no DD allowed! THAT is poor play if anything else.

He didn't follow the zerg's rules though. He pulled solo perfectly fine and got 5 seals for it.

People are forgetting what fun is thanks to all these damn hunts.

I hear that. Most people play for progression, though. If only the best way of getting 110 was from something more game-like... *slowly turns gaze in Japan's direction*

[ispano]

Granted I could have swapped to tank or healer, but I actually like damaging them, not trying to spam Flash or Overpower or Medica all the damn time. I was actually more happy to nuke the crap out of it for only 5 seals than I was to be in a namby pamby group of nothing but tanks and healers to get full credit. People are forgetting what fun is thanks to all these damn hunts.

I mean, I understand the mentality of wanting to get better gear... But I personally would NEVER get gear that way because it does not feel earned in the slightest. Part of why I don't need to partake in the system in the first place. I have my minions and the Ultima Weapon Figure. Seals just pile up and collect dust at this point. Not to mention, if I disagree with something, Sand/Oil being such an unlimited reward in this case, I wouldn't touch it anyways.

He didn't follow the zerg's rules though. He pulled solo perfectly fine and got 5 seals for it.

And he should of gotten more.

[Bladeglory]

And he should of gotten more.

Well that's one thing we agree on. Maybe more than that too. Agreed that the rewards system was poorly handled, both in terms of adhering to design and pacing progression?

[Trell]

Except they're right. This is not what SE intended, and you can see that in recent interviews and changes to the system. You can see it in the descriptions they've given. Does that mean you HAVE to play it that way? No.

If a group of 4 wants to pull an A rank without shouting for everyone and their brother to come, they've done absolutely NOTHING wrong. If a bit larger group spawns and finds an S rank and decides to take it down right then, again, they've done NOTHING wrong.

Some people might feel that being cooperative and helping more people get top end gear faster is a good thing. It's not, well if you ask them they will say it is, because they want it. But it's not. There are reasons we have lockouts on content that gives top end gear. There are reasons we have caps.

You can claim majority all you want, but until you bring back proof, it's just words. It could very well be the majority wants nothing to do with your zergs. Even at a few hundred people on a server, that's nowhere near a majority.

Lastly, what right do you have to call people playing the way THEY want unreasonable, when you want them to play the way YOU want. Yes, that's what you're doing. You're trying to say they're wrong and should play the way you feel is right, not the way they feel is right.

What I'm having the hardest time making you and others understand is that ultimately, design-wise, it often does not matter what SE's intentions are. A great number of people will always play content as efficiently and profitably as possible, despite the intent behind its design. The examples are many (original FATES, Brayflox longstop HM, etc). It displeases you, but it is still the truth. The onus is on SE to tighten their design to change the situation - not on players to ignore the advantages available to them in the interim.

Your theory about what's wrong or right makes perfect sense in a world where you are alone and only deal with NPCs. NOTHING wrong? According to whom? SE? You? The reality is that consensus among people determines a lot of what is right and wrong in any social context. The wider the consensus, the more right or wrong an action gets. Just step away from the computer and go outside - you'll be confronted with that fact soon enough.

For someone harping on words just being words, you sure like to hide behind them and ignore what's actually happening in game. I could turn around and say you have no proof that there are more people who despise large group hunting than the other way around, therefore nullifying the whole argument, because we both have no statistical proof. I refuse to do that because that's a lazy argument and I refuse to let you ignore what's actually happening in the game. From the instatement of hunts till this day, you can SEE that most people involved in hunts prefer or at least tolerate working as larger groups. There is a lot more drama created by unreasonably early pulling and resetting (i.e people outside of the consensus) than the other way around. On a typical hunting session, 8 times out of 10, people find marks, call out, gather, wait a reasonable amount of time, pull the mark, kill the mark and warp to the next open zone. You may see a couple of complaint shouts, but that's usually the extent of it. What do you think happens the remaining 2 times? That's right, DRAMA! Someone pulled as soon as they got there or someone reset the mob. As a result, people don't teleport away and an angry shout fest ensues. Just play hunts and take a look. You'll see.

The only thing I don't have a right to do is control you. The same way it's your right to say using a cooperative approach is wrong, it is certainly my right to tell you that I think the way you look at this is unreasonable. I don't hide it or apologize for it. I am telling you that playing hunts the way you see fit has real negative ramifications in the game, with real people. I'm also giving you real examples of how that applies in game. What I'm not doing is theory crafting and using a "letter of the TOS" approach to arguing that doesn't really help with the social aspects of this issue in the game.

You say all these things - and yet I've never seen you do any of it. Are you just playing devil's advocate here or do you really believe all this stuff you constantly circle back to?

I can't help but wonder too…

[Clavaat]

You say all these things - and yet I've never seen you do any of it. Are you just playing devil's advocate here or do you really believe all this stuff you constantly circle back to?

From my perspective:

I was adamantly against hunting as a large group. I argued for a long time here until I realized that it was just more aggravating than fun. As I've said before, on Balmung, there is an LS that creates PFs, has a forum, and is overall well-planned out. However, if you don't join them, or conform to their way of playing, they will outright shame, degrade, and post about you on a specific section of their website. If you don't join them, you essentially have no chance of getting full credit or claim.

So I caved. I want to progress with my team, and one of the best ways to do that was to up my gear using Hunt rewards. And it wasn't worth the arguments about what was right and wrong. On most days, I can ignore the bs that this particular LS churns out, but some days they become so vitriolic and downright idiotic, that it bothers this shit out of me more than any "early puller". Because, at the end of the day, you will get 90% of the Hunts if you are a part of this anyway. There is NO reason to be mad about it, and attack people who "pull early". It really doesn't matter.

In other words, I'm a bit of a hypocrite. I hate the way Hunts are handled, and I hate large LS' explicitly made for hunting, but I accept that if I want to actually get anything done, it's what I have to do and be a part of. It sucks, and I hope it changes. But in this thread, here, my main argument has and always will be to never ever shame another player for something as silly as this. I don't give a shit what "code" you follow anymore, from either side, but don't call out individuals.

As I've said previously in this thread, to me, the most viable solution would be to add WAY more Hunt mobs, possibly lower the reward per kill. This would make the idea of "early pulling" damn near non-existent. We shouldn't be able to track them with timers this well, or be able to be this organized about it. By this I mean, let us actually be able to do it on a Party/Solo level as opposed to a LS/Server level. This would actually make the system a lot more fun in my eyes.