Average BLM DPS T8?

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

There seems to be a certain misunderstanding when using food. People seem to be advocating using spell speed food over det/crit food. There are some issues with this:
The only spell speed food I can find that isn't Sachertorte are Pineapple Ponzecakes (2-star) and Pastry fish (lvl40 recipe). However, both of these give spell speed, vitality and piety. Surely you have no use for piety as a black mage, so this reduces the value you can get out of these items. Next would be Sachertorte, NQ caps at +24 spell speed and +6 determination and HQ caps at +30 spell speed and +8 determination. BUT there's a problem with this.

To get the maximum value out of Sachertorte you need 600 spell speed, 450 vitality and 300 determination for NQ/400 determination for HQ. Remember: Food gives you a PERCENTAGE boost, rather than a flat boost and caps at certain numbers. Unless you have 600 spell speed AND 300/400 determination, you can't get the maximum value out of these items. Assuming you have 470 spell speed and 250 determination with i110 build*, you'll only get 23 spell speed and 5 determination out of it. Combined +28 secondary stat points (HQ food). Apkallu Omelette (HQ) gives +27 crit which is easily reached with i110 and gives some accuracy as well. Meaning you could swap out one piece for more crit, det or spell speed in exchange for 8-9 accuracy. (you won't get more than 9 accuracy out of this, even with the cap at +11). Assuming you can perfectly utilize this: Apkallu Omelette gives +26/27 secondary stats.

Conclusion: While Sachertorte DOES give you a minor increase (+1 secondary stat more, in fact), is it really worth the price tag? Even if you forget about the value. Spell speed might even give you less value if it is just out of the threshold reach (you get 0.01s GCD for every set amount of spell speed). Ergo, you may only get -0.02s GCD instead of -0.03s.

*rough estimate, values may vary a bit

Edit: Even when going for max spell speed build with current i110 gear. The maximum value you can reach is 577 spell speed. While you suffer from severe accuracy issues and you still can't get any decent value out of determination (262 with same build). i90 gear was mentioned before. But I doubt 10-16 more secondary stats outweighs 5 primary stats (assuming it's an accessory)

Edit 2: Although I mentioned you could swap out "pieces", most direct example would be swapping out the Evenstar Earrings for High Allagan Earrings. Any other combinations requires complete overhaul of the build.

[HaroldSaxon]

There seems to be a certain misunderstanding when using food. People seem to be advocating using spell speed food over det/crit food. There are some issues with this:
The only spell speed food I can find that isn't Sachertorte are Pineapple Ponzecakes (2-star) and Pastry fish (lvl40 recipe). However, both of these give spell speed, vitality and piety. Surely you have no use for piety as a black mage, so this reduces the value you can get out of these items. Next would be Sachertorte, NQ caps at +24 spell speed and +6 determination and HQ caps at +30 spell speed and +8 determination. BUT there's a problem with this.

There isn't any misunderstanding about food. You are correct, the Piety is wasted, but the spellspeed weighting makes up for that (plus the fact that going over the accuracy cap is a waste for crit food, and you get less det with det food).

To get the maximum value out of Sachertorte you need 600 spell speed, 450 vitality and 300 determination for NQ/400 determination for HQ. Remember: Food gives you a PERCENTAGE boost, rather than a flat boost and caps at certain numbers. Unless you have 600 spell speed AND 300/400 determination, you can't get the maximum value out of these items. Assuming you have 470 spell speed and 250 determination with i110 build*, you'll only get 23 spell speed and 5 determination out of it. Combined +28 secondary stat points (HQ food). Apkallu Omelette (HQ) gives +27 crit which is easily reached with i110 and gives some accuracy as well. Meaning you could swap out one piece for more crit, det or spell speed in exchange for 8-9 accuracy. (you won't get more than 9 accuracy out of this, even with the cap at +11). Assuming you can perfectly utilize this: Apkallu Omelette gives +26/27 secondary stats.

Conclusion: While Sachertorte DOES give you a minor increase (+1 secondary stat more, in fact), is it really worth the price tag? Even if you forget about the value. Spell speed might even give you less value if it is just out of the threshold reach (you get 0.01s GCD for every set amount of spell speed). Ergo, you may only get -0.02s GCD instead of -0.03s.

*rough estimate, values may vary a bit

If you are progressing, every little helps. I don't use it now unless i'm pushing a certain goal (like now, trying to get 450 in T8). Its the same with pots too. But for the most part, it isn't really worth the cost.

Edit: Even when going for max spell speed build with current i110 gear. The maximum value you can reach is 577 spell speed. While you suffer from severe accuracy issues and you still can't get any decent value out of determination (262 with same build). i90 gear was mentioned before. But I doubt 10-16 more secondary stats outweighs 5 primary stats (assuming it's an accessory)

Edit 2: Although I mentioned you could swap out "pieces", most direct example would be swapping out the Evenstar Earrings for High Allagan Earrings. Any other combinations requires complete overhaul of the build.

With the rings, when melded for damage, they outdamage all of the i110 rings (when the Ramuh ring becomes i110, it will be better however).

Furthermore, if you are looking for accuracy pieces, the Jewelry and Belt are fantastic pieces. They are VERY efficient for the accuracy they have on - they are fairly close to the i110 damage pieces, and comfortably above the i110 accuracy pieces. They are also ideal if you are going spellspeed as only 3 damage pieces have spellspeed with the main secondary stat.

For instance, with my current build, the only i110 pieces I use in T8 are the Weapon, Gloves, Feet and Neck. The rest are pentamelded crafted pieces. I hit the accuracy cap and i'm pushing 450 dps (I was on course to hit it last night on one run). I'm sitting at 526 Int, 547 Crit, 317 det, 595 SS without food. I'll also gain more spellspeed when I get my final pieces (will lose some slightly with the chestpiece, but gain some on the weapon and legs).

You do however have a very good point; at i110 there aren't many primary spellspeed pieces, which imo is poor design and comes obviously from the lack of gear choices. Things would have been a lot nicer if you could use a sand to upgrade an ST gear piece.

This is also ignoring the utility benefits spellspeed has anyway.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

There isn't any misunderstanding about food. You are correct, the Piety is wasted, but the spellspeed weighting makes up for that (plus the fact that going over the accuracy cap is a waste for crit food, and you get less det with det food).

Same could be said about spell speed being wasted at certain thresholds, though. You need roughly 11 spell speed for every 0.01s reduction. I would like to know your actual spell speed value before I continue on this point, however (unbuffed, just gear)

I'm still not entirely convinced about i90 accessories outperforming i110 accessories. For warrior, perhaps, for it can have vit or str melded and have good str/vit ratio on it as well as some parry. But for DPS classes (this case black mage)?

Let's start with the Diamond Ring: +13 int and +11 determination. Assuming you meld 5 Grade 4 material in them and get +9 accuracy, +16 crit and +16 spell speed, the ring has a combined 52 secondary stats. In comparison: The Evenstar- and High Allagan ring has 32 secondary stats. This means 20 secondary stats more in exchange for 5 int.

The general rule of thumb has been that 1 main stat is equivalent to 6-9 secondary stats (plenty of theorycrafting on this, search the forums). 20 secondary stats difference is equivalent to 4 intelligence. In theory this means you're actually losing in stat value.

[HaroldSaxon]

Same could be said about spell speed being wasted at certain thresholds, though. You need roughly 11 spell speed for every 0.01s reduction.

Actually, that is only displayed reduction. Every point decreases your recast time.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...ive_web#gid=50

I would like to know your actual spell speed value before I continue on this point, however (unbuffed, just gear)

592 without food. I can get it higher when the T9 Weapon/Pants finally drop for me.

I'm still not entirely convinced about i90 accessories outperforming i110 accessories. For warrior, perhaps, for it can have vit or str melded and have good str/vit ratio on it as well as some parry. But for DPS classes (this case black mage)?

Let's start with the Diamond Ring: +13 int and +11 determination. Assuming you meld 5 Grade 4 material in them and get +9 accuracy, +16 crit and +16 spell speed, the ring has a combined 52 secondary stats. In comparison: The Evenstar- and High Allagan ring has 32 secondary stats. This means 20 secondary stats more in exchange for 5 int.

The general rule of thumb has been that 1 main stat is equivalent to 6-9 secondary stats (plenty of theorycrafting on this, search the forums). 20 secondary stats difference is equivalent to 4 intelligence. In theory this means you're actually losing in stat value.

BLM still scales very well off all 3 stats. Furthermore, the i110 rings currently have accuracy on, thus its not hard for the i90 crafted rings to be damage increases over them.

The stat weights according to Puro with Seleen (which, again is assumed given thats generally what good scholars use):
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...ive_web#gid=50

WD 6.357
INT 1
Det 0.246
Crit 0.209
SS 0.295

This means that the following theoretical Int values are:

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

I have no actual sources or data to agree or disprove the Spell speed issue, so I'll just let that case rest for now.

That aside, I find it interesting how you assume you'll have 100% fey glow up based on the stat weights (actual values drop slightly, but that's not the point here)

I just played around with Ariyala a bit, you piqued my interest about the whole i90 accessories having more weight. I ended up creating two builds: One with i90 accessories (2 accuracy melded, 3 "damage" melded) and the default i110 set. While aiming not to overcap accuracy too much.
This resulted in the follow stats increases for each build:
i90 accessory build (4 accuracy over cap)
+163 crit (34,07)
+209 Spell speed (56,43)
+109 determination (26,81)
+278 intelligence (278)
Combined value is 395,31

i110 build (3 accuracy over cap)
+168 crit (35,112)
+178 spell speed (48,06)
+42 determination (10,33)
+303 intelligence (303)
Combined value is 396,50

Conclusion: After spending millions and millions of gil or hours and hours of spiritbinding, you're at -1,19 value compared to the full i110 build. I'm still not convinced.

ps: Interesting how we ended up from the food conversation to the i90 accessories (not that I'm complaining, gives me something to do)

[HaroldSaxon]

I have no actual sources or data to agree or disprove the Spell speed issue, so I'll just let that case rest for now.

That aside, I find it interesting how you assume you'll have 100% fey glow up based on the stat weights (actual values drop slightly, but that's not the point here)

I just played around with Ariyala a bit, you piqued my interest about the whole i90 accessories having more weight. I ended up creating two builds: One with i90 accessories (2 accuracy melded, 3 "damage" melded) and the default i110 set. While aiming not to overcap accuracy too much.
This resulted in the follow stats increases for each build:
i90 accessory build (4 accuracy over cap)
+163 crit (34,07)
+209 Spell speed (56,43)
+109 determination (26,81)
+278 intelligence (278)
Combined value is 395,31

i110 build (3 accuracy over cap)
+168 crit (35,112)
+178 spell speed (48,06)
+42 determination (10,33)
+303 intelligence (303)
Combined value is 396,50

Conclusion: After spending millions and millions of gil or hours and hours of spiritbinding, you're at -1,19 value compared to the full i110 build. I'm still not convinced.

ps: Interesting how we ended up from the food conversation to the i90 accessories (not that I'm complaining, gives me something to do)

Try this set:

http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/NSCG

4 Acc over the cap
Int: +260
Crit: +183
Det: +122
SS: +278

Combined Value:
(0.246*112)+(0.209*183)+(0.295*278)+260=407.809

Please let me know if i've done the math wrong or misunderstood the way you've worked it out. The only HA drops you need to RNJesus for are the Weapon, Chest and Legs (I'm still praying). With regards to gil; I did this all on Faerie, where Materia prices were pretty cheap; and I made my money either selling carries, spiritbinding and/or crafting.

Conversely, Puro's BIS is:

Int: +303
Crit: +186
Det: +38
SS: +178

Total: (0.246*38)+(0.209*186)+(0.295*178)+303 = 403.732

Both done without food; Puro's BIS is under accuracy and needs Apkallu Omelette (+27 crit), mine would be Sacherotte (+30SS and +6 det)

[athenia]

Please let me know if i've done the math wrong or misunderstood the way you've worked it out. The only HA drops you need to RNJesus for are the Weapon, Chest and Legs (I'm still praying). With regards to gil; I did this all on Faerie, where Materia prices were pretty cheap; and I made my money either selling carries, spiritbinding and/or crafting.

Conversely, Puro's BIS is:

Int: +303
Crit: +186
Det: +38
SS: +178

Total: (0.246*38)+(0.209*186)+(0.295*178)+303 = 403.732

Both done without food; Puro's BIS is under accuracy and needs Apkallu Omelette (+27 crit), mine would be Sacherotte (+30SS and +6 det)

its +42 det on the lvl 110 gear so the result is 404,761.
What u really Forget about is, that ss has that 0,295 Rating ONLY in a perfect fight (no Interrupts) AND with selene. U simply cant give ss that high Rating cause u always get interrupted.
For me DET is as good as SS and that means the ilvl 110 set is better.