Why can't we have jobs with this level of depth and customization in FFXIV?

[Hyrist]

I agree, I think we should have things like skill chains.

I would love to see a forth role consisting of pure buff/debuff/support, it would allow for fights to be tuned with bosses that hit harder, have higher dps checks, or are very healing intensive. Imagine needing a rdm or brd to debuff a boss enough so we could defeat it. I think with enough support jobs for the sake of variety, the aforementioned concept would be interesting.

I don't seen this happening - the support role.


Reason being is population balancing.

We're already leaning heavily on the side of DPS, so much that it's a 2:1 ratio in favor of DPS due to the role's popularity (or a 5/3 ratio in ST). Without expanding the base light party to 5, I don't see a way they could impliment it into duty finder or fights in general without worsening the bottle-neck issue with DPS we currently have.

I would like to see more support functions for classes, however. A straight support class? Not so much.

I'd like to see something along the lines of skill chains, however. If it can be balanced. One of the problems with FFXI's skillchain system is that it did narrow the viable field of classes initially due to players simply exploiting the most efficient group to skillchain with, and this problem repeatedly came up.

There would also be the concern on how it would work in this game. Fights are faster paced, combat isn't the same as it was in FFXI by a Wide Margin. Combat was a slow build and skillchains were to make use of these separate slow builds in a form of teamwork. The entire concept would likely not be recognizable from how we would remember it. Not to mention the difficulty coordinating such. Perhaps specific off-gdc skills could be used in tandem to make specific effects? There is a lot to think on as far as that subject goes.

[cryptic_angel]

From what I understand, people want the ability to choose from a bunch of different "styles". They also want all them to be viable.

I don't think it's a worthy venture because it'll only take a week or two to figure out which is the best style and you're a moron for not using said style. I saw this in another thread, "What if there was a STR specialized DRG and Crit specialized DRG? What happens when the theory-crafters figure out that Crit specialized shits all over STR spec in DPS and you decide you want to be STR spec? Guess what, you're booted for being STR spec. Come back when you're crit spec."

Other than that, I've never seen any of those people suggest a system that couldwork without basically ruining the balance SE seems to want to maintain. Although, the common retort is, "it's up to the devs to make it happen."

If I had to pick between a buffet where only a handful of food was good or vanilla paste cafe, I would take the buffet. I get your point and I agree with the notion that most raiders and min/max-ers would play the optimal setup; but, in a game where we can switch classes on a whim, I would enjoy playing "neat" classes, that might unperformed by 8-10%, in the myriad of other content outside of raiding.

I don't seen this happening - the support role.


Reason being is population balancing.

We're already leaning heavily on the side of DPS, so much that it's a 2:1 ratio in favor of DPS due to the role's popularity (or a 5/3 ratio in ST). Without expanding the base light party to 5, I don't see a way they could impliment it into duty finder or fights in general without worsening the bottle-neck issue with DPS we currently have.

I would like to see more support functions for classes, however. A straight support class? Not so much.

I'd like to see something along the lines of skill chains, however. If it can be balanced. One of the problems with FFXI's skillchain system is that it did narrow the viable field of classes initially due to players simply exploiting the most efficient group to skillchain with, and this problem repeatedly came up.

There would also be the concern on how it would work in this game. Fights are faster paced, combat isn't the same as it was in FFXI by a Wide Margin. Combat was a slow build and skillchains were to make use of these separate slow builds in a form of teamwork. The entire concept would likely not be recognizable from how we would remember it. Not to mention the difficulty coordinating such. Perhaps specific off-gdc skills could be used in tandem to make specific effects? There is a lot to think on as far as that subject goes.

I think a debuff class would have to come in the form how brd works in this game. Utilizing stances, modes, or dps/hps/tps losses to debuff/buff could allow for hybridization and we could see a class the mechanically would work different in a static raid group than how it works in DF or CT/ST.

I agree, any iterations of skill chains and debuff classes are most likely not going to be reconizable by ff11 players.

[Gilthas]

Even in FFXI there was customization but realistically if you wanted a good group you had only a set amount of choices per job.

Sure, but people see that mages had a huge spell list and that melees could equip a variety of weapon types and go "FFXI had so much more depth!".

For that particular example, it's not the rotation, it's the setup and configuration possibilities.

Like I already mentioned: Puppetmaster (or any job really) having a lot of setup and configuration possibilities is completely meaningless when only a very select few were viable. Puppetmaster didn't even have a viable endgame build. It was just a novelty job that was never taken seriously.

[Triston]

Again, please remember:

This thread is not here to request puppetmaster be added to the game.

But what DO you want then? Your example is flawed; PUP's complexity is an illusion that only serves as a gil-enforced barrier to entry. Actual PUP gameplay is extremely shallow, (hit a maneuver every like 20-30 seconds, weaponskill with TP) actual FFXIV gameplay is extremely deep. The simplest BLM rotation is "Fire until no mana, then Blizzard," but in order to attain competitive DPS there are a LOT more factors, spells, and decisions being made every moment. The same goes for every other job in XIV; they are all simple to PICK UP, yes, in order to cater to new players, but by design they are all much more difficult to master than the ones in FFXI were.

FFXI combat is shallow; all the decisions are made BEFORE a fight via what gear you have access to and what macros you've made for them. In all honesty DNC probably had potential to be the most complex job from FFXI, but even that was ruined when it was eventually turned from dps/healer/support to pure DD; DNC rotations now are fairly simple like the other DD jobs.

As an FFXI BRD main, literally the only choice made available to me was where to stand, and if I wanted to bother using Pianissimo. I sing the same songs for the same groups over and over for the duration of a fight: March/Madrigal for melee, double Ballad for casters, and if I was feeling frisky, Pianissimo Minne for the PLD. That's it.
BRD of course is the example of the worst of the worst, but people need to stop pretending that FFXI had 'depth.'



I will agree that customization would be cool; it would be nice to have something akin to talent trees in order to slightly "color" the way you play your job, e.g. one Bard with a passive chosen to remove the DPS loss while singing, another Bard that instead keeps the penalty but has a passive buff that increases damage dealt while singing, stacking for each consecutive second spent singing. The first can sing whenever he feels the support is wanted, the latter would be encouraged to wait for when a single song would be effective for the entire duration.

[Hyrist]

Just thought I'd throw in a dose of reality.

So... when are you going to throw it in?

All I saw was accusations and bitter grapes about a design team who took a philosophy you disagreed with. FFXI was appealing.... to about 500k, less than a quarter of our subscriber base, not even including China. And 100k MORE than Yoshida was expecting to get at launch.

So, gripe all you like. The dose of reality here is, the current approach is working. Can't wait to see the Census data.

[Risvertasashi]

Like I already mentioned: Puppetmaster (or any job really) having a lot of setup and configuration possibilities is completely meaningless when only a very select few were viable. Puppetmaster didn't even have a viable endgame build. It was just a novelty job that was never taken seriously.

But there's no reason to say any such jobs will necessarily repeat that in XIV. And cryptic angle said it better than I can:

If I had to pick between a buffet where only a handful of food was good or vanilla paste cafe, I would take the buffet. I get your point and I agree with the notion that most raiders and min/max-ers would play the optimal setup; but, in a game where we can switch classes on a whim, I would enjoy playing "neat" classes, that might unperformed by 8-10%, in the myriad of other content outside of raiding.

And I'm expecting there to be more and more content outside of raiding as the game ages.

[Risvertasashi]

So, gripe all you like. The dose of reality here is, the current approach is working. Can't wait to see the Census data.

Doesn't mean things can't be even better than now.

I don't like vertical progression so much, but I can't argue that, as you point out, it works. In the case of jobs, however, adding what we're seeking here doesn't require changes to the existing ones, or in any way subtract from the current systems. There is only the potential to add more to the game.

[Velhart]

Devs already said if they have a job that focuses more on the pets in fights, it is a unfair disadvantage compared to others. In this game at least. FFXI goes at a pace where you can afford to mess with things like managing your puppet/summon.

[Zumi]

Lets like at the high end game event in current FFXI delve. The following jobs people take in this 18 man event.

Job - Role
MNK - DPS/Tank
DRK - DPS
DRG - Argon (-25% defense) / dps (low dps but hey they mainly for argon)
WHM - Healer
SCH - Healer/buffer
BRD - buffer
COR - buffer
GEO - buffer/debuffer

For a game that has 22 jobs basically people only take these few around to endgame. If you have a non standard group of friends sure you can take non optimal jobs but any pug they will only want these certain jobs.

You see jobs that you could customize to do a role like pup where never taken or used in endgame because there were specialized jobs that did their role better.

[Hyrist]

I think a debuff class would have to come in the form how brd works in this game. Utilizing stances, modes, or dps/hps/tps losses to debuff/buff could allow for hybridization and we could see a class the mechanically would work different in a static raid group than how it works in DF or CT/ST.

I agree, any iterations of skill chains and debuff classes are most likely not going to be reconizable by ff11 players.

I could see that be utalized in the same box slot we would have in a DPS. Heck, I might like to see Red Mage applied with those concepts, something fluid that could shift to meet the needs of the party/raid/group they're in.

Doesn't mean things can't be even better than now.

I don't like vertical progression so much, but I can't argue that, as you point out, it works. In the case of jobs, however, adding what we're seeking here doesn't require changes to the existing ones, or in any way subtract from the current systems. There is only the potential to add more to the game.

No, that's fine. I agree. I do feel, however, that such changes should be done with all due caution, and to balance that from the onset takes time.

This philosophy is part of the reason why I am in support of a Public Test Server as well, so we don't run into issues like we did with Hunts.

I just don't tolerate people interjecting into a conversation with the tone that they are better than those who've taken the time to disseminate issues. Again, it's bitter individuals who feel that no leeway should be given at all and negativity is both warranted and necessary. That top-down mentality, in my view, should be ostracized and unwelcome on all subjects and approaches.

I'll make a safe assumption in stating we're not here to ruin everyone else's time.