Why can't we have jobs with this level of depth and customization in FFXIV?

[Hyrist]

I have to wonder though about the level of depth and complexity people are seeking. There is truth in the argument that most of FFXIV's jobs were simple when you remove much of its redundancy. Jobs like Puppetmaster and Blue Mage were somewhat of an exception due to the number of passive traits that could cause these's Job's focuses to shift. However to some degree, this already exists in FFXIV's core Class/Job system, as evidenced by Arcanist, and even disregarding that, within stance like abilities like Warrior's Defiance or Conjurer's Cleric Stance. Even the varying pets of Summoner provide differing depth within its design.

As a personal note, I would not mind them expanding on the established concepts they have to add more depth to the game. We have not even seen the depth of what has been introduced with Ninja. I'm in a 'wait and see' mode. I want to know what they have planned for the Class system as it stands. I can't help but feel that we are left with a half written page and providing feedback on chapters undefined.

[Risvertasashi]

However to some degree, this already exists in FFXIV's core Class/Job system, as evidenced by Arcanist, and even disregarding that, within stance like abilities like Warrior's Defiance or Conjurer's Cleric Stance. Even the varying pets of Summoner provide differing depth within its design.

As a personal note, I would not mind them expanding on the established concepts they have to add more depth to the game. We have not even seen the depth of what has been introduced with Ninja. I'm in a 'wait and see' mode. I want to know what they have planned for the Class system as it stands. I can't help but feel that we are left with a half written page and providing feedback on chapters undefined.

Sure, I won't argue that; there are some interesting possibilities within the current system. But it's all in execution, not setup. And for arcanist... well, it's most a matter of: Want to SCH? MND. Want to SMN? INT. There's not that much leeway. SMN almost has it, with STR and VIT affecting pets, but since it's more a dot job than a pet job, INT pretty much wins out. If 80% of the damage came from the pet instead of the summoner, maybe we would see things like STR SMN builds? That would be kind of interesting. I doubt you'd really see VIT builds, though, because titan egi is expressly designed for solo play.

Well, I'm hoping 3.0 will make things better too. We'll see.

[Exstal]

I have to wonder though about the level of depth and complexity people are seeking.

From what I understand, people want the ability to choose from a bunch of different "styles". They also want all them to be viable.

I don't think it's a worthy venture because it'll only take a week or two to figure out which is the best style and you're a moron for not using said style. I saw this in another thread, "What if there was a STR specialized DRG and Crit specialized DRG? What happens when the theory-crafters figure out that Crit specialized shits all over STR spec in DPS and you decide you want to be STR spec? Guess what, you're booted for being STR spec. Come back when you're crit spec."

Other than that, I've never seen any of those people suggest a system that could work without basically ruining the balance SE seems to want to maintain. Although, the common retort is, "it's up to the devs to make it happen."

[Risvertasashi]

From what I understand, people want the ability to choose from a bunch of different "styles". They also want all them to be viable.

Ehm... that's a holy grail there. I know if they add something with deep customization, a lot of configurations won't be viable in high end group play. I'd be happy with best effort and just having that ability, though.

The problem with your example is you're mixing main stats with off stats/secondary stats. You can have crit without sacrificing STR, if only the pieces you need have that as an off stat. Rather than STR vs Crit, you should be fielding DET vs Crit. There's some interesting discussion to be had there but I feel that's better left to the horizontal progression threads.

[cryptic_angel]

From what I understand, people want the ability to choose from a bunch of different "styles". They also want all them to be viable.

I don't think it's a worthy venture because it'll only take a week or two to figure out which is the best style and you're a moron for not using said style. I saw this in another thread, "What if there was a STR specialized DRG and Crit specialized DRG? What happens when the theory-crafters figure out that Crit specialized shits all over STR spec in DPS and you decide you want to be STR spec? Guess what, you're booted for being STR spec. Come back when you're crit spec."

Other than that, I've never seen any of those people suggest a system that couldwork without basically ruining the balance SE seems to want to maintain. Although, the common retort is, "it's up to the devs to make it happen."

If I had to pick between a buffet where only a handful of food was good or vanilla paste cafe, I would take the buffet. I get your point and I agree with the notion that most raiders and min/max-ers would play the optimal setup; but, in a game where we can switch classes on a whim, I would enjoy playing "neat" classes, that might unperformed by 8-10%, in the myriad of other content outside of raiding.

I don't seen this happening - the support role.


Reason being is population balancing.

We're already leaning heavily on the side of DPS, so much that it's a 2:1 ratio in favor of DPS due to the role's popularity (or a 5/3 ratio in ST). Without expanding the base light party to 5, I don't see a way they could impliment it into duty finder or fights in general without worsening the bottle-neck issue with DPS we currently have.

I would like to see more support functions for classes, however. A straight support class? Not so much.

I'd like to see something along the lines of skill chains, however. If it can be balanced. One of the problems with FFXI's skillchain system is that it did narrow the viable field of classes initially due to players simply exploiting the most efficient group to skillchain with, and this problem repeatedly came up.

There would also be the concern on how it would work in this game. Fights are faster paced, combat isn't the same as it was in FFXI by a Wide Margin. Combat was a slow build and skillchains were to make use of these separate slow builds in a form of teamwork. The entire concept would likely not be recognizable from how we would remember it. Not to mention the difficulty coordinating such. Perhaps specific off-gdc skills could be used in tandem to make specific effects? There is a lot to think on as far as that subject goes.

I think a debuff class would have to come in the form how brd works in this game. Utilizing stances, modes, or dps/hps/tps losses to debuff/buff could allow for hybridization and we could see a class the mechanically would work different in a static raid group than how it works in DF or CT/ST.

I agree, any iterations of skill chains and debuff classes are most likely not going to be reconizable by ff11 players.

[Risvertasashi]

Like I already mentioned: Puppetmaster (or any job really) having a lot of setup and configuration possibilities is completely meaningless when only a very select few were viable. Puppetmaster didn't even have a viable endgame build. It was just a novelty job that was never taken seriously.

But there's no reason to say any such jobs will necessarily repeat that in XIV. And cryptic angle said it better than I can:

If I had to pick between a buffet where only a handful of food was good or vanilla paste cafe, I would take the buffet. I get your point and I agree with the notion that most raiders and min/max-ers would play the optimal setup; but, in a game where we can switch classes on a whim, I would enjoy playing "neat" classes, that might unperformed by 8-10%, in the myriad of other content outside of raiding.

And I'm expecting there to be more and more content outside of raiding as the game ages.

[Hyrist]

I think a debuff class would have to come in the form how brd works in this game. Utilizing stances, modes, or dps/hps/tps losses to debuff/buff could allow for hybridization and we could see a class the mechanically would work different in a static raid group than how it works in DF or CT/ST.

I agree, any iterations of skill chains and debuff classes are most likely not going to be reconizable by ff11 players.

I could see that be utalized in the same box slot we would have in a DPS. Heck, I might like to see Red Mage applied with those concepts, something fluid that could shift to meet the needs of the party/raid/group they're in.

Doesn't mean things can't be even better than now.

I don't like vertical progression so much, but I can't argue that, as you point out, it works. In the case of jobs, however, adding what we're seeking here doesn't require changes to the existing ones, or in any way subtract from the current systems. There is only the potential to add more to the game.

No, that's fine. I agree. I do feel, however, that such changes should be done with all due caution, and to balance that from the onset takes time.

This philosophy is part of the reason why I am in support of a Public Test Server as well, so we don't run into issues like we did with Hunts.

I just don't tolerate people interjecting into a conversation with the tone that they are better than those who've taken the time to disseminate issues. Again, it's bitter individuals who feel that no leeway should be given at all and negativity is both warranted and necessary. That top-down mentality, in my view, should be ostracized and unwelcome on all subjects and approaches.

I'll make a safe assumption in stating we're not here to ruin everyone else's time.