Why can't we have jobs with this level of depth and customization in FFXIV?

[Meshico]

*rolls eyes*

"Do you guys remember your rotations in XI? Mine consisted of mostly waiting for my TP to reach 100 so I could use Rampage.

*above quote* LOL so true :')

I think Cryptic_Angel was probably referring to Skill Chains and Magic Bursts. Knowing which elemental magic was best against an opponent.

The "LOL" part was much later, when people ditched skill chains and magic bursts.

I remember having a chart by my side as a blm, and I would ask the melee to do scission for my stonega II burst on...coerls was it? Anyways, it was strategic, even though it wasn't their strongest skill chain the damage would be offset by the ridiculous damage made by the magic burst. Those were really fun times, in my eyes.

1.0 had something very similar, which was removed, about breaking horns, and bleeding enemies. The thing that really held people back was a lack of information on how to do these things, or even knowing them in the first place.

I do miss that aspect of early FFXI, and FFXIV 1.0 Also food was important back in those days too!

I am hopeful (water of the wise man or liquor for the fool) that the expansion will bring back SOMETHING LIKE these old elements.

[Yamimarik]

Skill, Depth, & Complexity < Casual Players & New Players

This has been Yoshi's modus operandi and he has confirmed it several times in regards to classes as simple as red mage. That is why current jobs in this game have such simple rotations.

If we ever see puppet master, it will lack much of the depth that it had in ff11.

As someone has already stated this, I will keep it short and sweet: if a mouth breather can't play the class, it's not gonna happen.

If FFXIV:ARR is doomed to have only "mouth breathers" play this game, why do you even play?

You always have some kind of FFXIV hate filled messages, when anyone brings up suggestions to better this game, in any light towards the actual game.

If you're so miserable, then why play a game you so clearly don't want to see succeed? I think FFXIV:ARR has great potential to be a great game for years to come, which is why I play it daily and support it. Really don't get the mentality that I'm gonna play and torture myself on a game I hate... for "X" reasons.

I could very well see PUP making it's way to FFXIV:ARR, just not until after the expansion though.

[Gilthas]

you're cherry picking, puppet master was not a melee job that just spammed skill chains. It could tank, heal, and dps.

Yes, Yoshi has stated he wants to keep the game simple for players who are newer to the genre. He gave this very reason as to why we can't have red mage at this time. You should check your facts before you respond.

No dude, you're the one cherry picking when you choose to talk about one of the two (out of 20 at the time I played) "complex" jobs that existed in XI. Even worse, not only was Puppetmaster not really that complex (having a long list of abilities/spells is meaningless when only a select few are used), "mouth-breethers" as you call them could play the job easily anyway, more so when it was never used in any serious content.

Much of the parroted "complexity" and "diversity" of FFXI was nothing more than bloat.

[Estellios]

Hell the only reason puppetmaster (and many things in ff11) was so "complex" was because a ton of important, potentially detrimental information was hidden from you. I mentioned Overloading but yeah, let's keep information hidden from the player that is incredibly obtuse that gives you a high chance of making your Puppet (aka 50% of the job) just completely unable to do anything temporarily.

[cryptic_angel]

So.
Some jobs in XI were playable by "mouth breathers".
Others weren't.

What's wrong with a similar style here where we get a job that actually involves a decision making process? Heaven forbid someone actually has to think, if it isn't available to 100% of the population it shouldn't be added!
Better remove Coil, Extremes, and anything else a "mouth breather" can't do while we're at it.

You missed my point, I am agreeing with you that the game should have jobs that are hard to master. I am just saying it's not likely to happen since Yoshi himself has provided his thoughts as to why we can't have complex jobs.

No dude, you're the one cherry picking when you choose to talk about one of the two (out of 20 at the time I played) "complex" jobs that existed in XI. Even worse, not only was Puppetmaster not really that complex (having a long list of abilities/spells is meaningless when only a select few are used), "mouth-breethers" as you call them could play the job easily anyway, more so when it was never used in any serious content.

Much of the parroted "complexity" and "diversity" of FFXI was nothing more than bloat.

Go find my post where I say ff11 was complex. Please, go find it and I will stop posting in this thread. All I said was that if we saw Pup in this game that it would lack the depth it had in ff11.

You're the one picking random examples from ff11 and saying "see, this was not complex." I am talking about Pup. You're arguing about a point I never made. I never said ff11 was majorly complex or that is was super simple.

Please go on though,

Much of the parroted "complexity" and "diversity" of FFXI was nothing more than bloat.

It's like you made a straw man and now you are fighting with it or something? It's hilarious
I will just reiterate my statement again, I was never talking about ff11 as a whole. Please go back and take your time reading my posts.

If FFXIV:ARR is doomed to have only "mouth breathers" play this game, why do you even play?

You always have some kind of FFXIV hate filled messages, when anyone brings up suggestions to better this game, in any light towards the actual game.

If you're so miserable, then why play a game you so clearly don't want to see succeed? I think FFXIV:ARR has great potential to be a great game for years to come, which is why I play it daily and support it. Really don't get the mentality that I'm gonna play and torture myself on a game I hate... for "X" reasons.

I could very well see PUP making it's way to FFXIV:ARR, just not until after the expansion though.

If you read stuff that I post, then you would already know the answer to your question. I play because of the friends I have made. I would not sub to this game if it was not for my FC and my static. I told them I am waiting until the expansion to see how things play out.

I also want the game to succeed as much as you do. I just don't like feeling like the dev team does not care about raiders. Yoshi and the dev team have made their goals clear several times and while other games are making moves to incentive raiding, this game does nothing of that sort. So, we will see what happens come the expansion.

[Madoka]

FFXIV is balanced so that no job gets left out
FFXI is not balanced at all

[Hyrist]

The bitter cynicism isn't productive by any means, regardless of what one's views are.

It is in the hope of finding progress and compromise that some participate in these conversations. And many people, on both sides of the argument, have been able to maintain an air of civility here.

Attempting to be short and witty does not adequately get one's 'point' across, nor does it speak well of the community to refer to its people as a generalist, crass insult.

I'll reiterate that the general agreement here is we would like to see the game improve. The only differences is how we would like to see that come about.

[Risvertasashi]

I feel like the conversation has gone a bit off the rails here. Please remember:

This thread is not a request to bring in puppetmaster.
This thread is not a request to copy FFXI mechanics or endgame, etc.

What is it? A request for more complex, thought out, deep jobs. Comparable to some jobs/classes seen in other MMOs. I used a specific example of a job from XI I came across while surfing, but it's not the only example out there.

I'm not saying the more straightforward jobs should go away. I would just like to see some options at the other end of the spectrum.

[Lemuria]

I'd just be happy if they opened up the support skills a bit more. There are literally DOZENS of skills which would benefit other jobs which can't be used by that class. Why? Goodness only knows. Presumably because of some bizarre notion of balance, and yet these skills are undoubtedly useable by the class the job is built from.

So, just because I go from Gladiator to Paladin, I can't regen TP with Invigorate? Does equipping the stone make Paladins stupid? They even removed Thunder from Summoner's cast list for reasons unknown.

I guess that's my biggest gripe when it comes to 'customization'. There is literally none when it comes to skills. You have a handful of ones you can actually equip, and usually less than 5 of them are actually beneficial for your job. Much less than 5 if you're a Black Mage or Summoner.

Either they could give us some new equippable skills, where we're restricted to 1 new skill out of the selection. Or they could open up the cross-class skills to make them actually cross classes. Right now it feels more like an afterthought than any real attempt at character customization.

[DefendPopPunk]

I was baiting that reply. Because if we are designing puppetmaster, or any other class based off FFXI mechanics, we have to keep some things in mind.

I wasn't arguing for a puppetmaster based off of FFXI mechanics. Also, I know the difference between the two games, so going into detail about it is kind of pointless. I still play FFXI so trust me when I say I know how cumbersome that game could be, and that's not what I'm advocating turning this game into. What I am saying is that just because players use a gamepad on this game and just because this game's combat is a little bit more fast paced doesn't mean that there isn't room for complexity. You even said yourself that there is complexity through simplicity. This game doesn't have to become FFXI to have its own interesting and complex gameplay mechanics. As for bleeding subscribers, well, it goes both ways I'm sure. FFXIV has always seemed about pleasing every crowd.