Why can't we have jobs with this level of depth and customization in FFXIV?

[saeedaisspecial]

you're cherry picking, puppet master was not a melee job that just spammed skill chains. It could tank, heal, and dps.

Yes, Yoshi has stated he wants to keep the game simple for players who are newer to the genre. He gave this very reason as to why we can't have red mage at this time. You should check your facts before you respond.

So.
Some jobs in XI were playable by "mouth breathers".
Others weren't.

What's wrong with a similar style here where we get a job that actually involves a decision making process? Heaven forbid someone actually has to think, if it isn't available to 100% of the population it shouldn't be added!
Better remove Coil, Extremes, and anything else a "mouth breather" can't do while we're at it.

[cryptic_angel]

So.
Some jobs in XI were playable by "mouth breathers".
Others weren't.

What's wrong with a similar style here where we get a job that actually involves a decision making process? Heaven forbid someone actually has to think, if it isn't available to 100% of the population it shouldn't be added!
Better remove Coil, Extremes, and anything else a "mouth breather" can't do while we're at it.

You missed my point, I am agreeing with you that the game should have jobs that are hard to master. I am just saying it's not likely to happen since Yoshi himself has provided his thoughts as to why we can't have complex jobs.

No dude, you're the one cherry picking when you choose to talk about one of the two (out of 20 at the time I played) "complex" jobs that existed in XI. Even worse, not only was Puppetmaster not really that complex (having a long list of abilities/spells is meaningless when only a select few are used), "mouth-breethers" as you call them could play the job easily anyway, more so when it was never used in any serious content.

Much of the parroted "complexity" and "diversity" of FFXI was nothing more than bloat.

Go find my post where I say ff11 was complex. Please, go find it and I will stop posting in this thread. All I said was that if we saw Pup in this game that it would lack the depth it had in ff11.

You're the one picking random examples from ff11 and saying "see, this was not complex." I am talking about Pup. You're arguing about a point I never made. I never said ff11 was majorly complex or that is was super simple.

Please go on though,

Much of the parroted "complexity" and "diversity" of FFXI was nothing more than bloat.

It's like you made a straw man and now you are fighting with it or something? It's hilarious
I will just reiterate my statement again, I was never talking about ff11 as a whole. Please go back and take your time reading my posts.

If FFXIV:ARR is doomed to have only "mouth breathers" play this game, why do you even play?

You always have some kind of FFXIV hate filled messages, when anyone brings up suggestions to better this game, in any light towards the actual game.

If you're so miserable, then why play a game you so clearly don't want to see succeed? I think FFXIV:ARR has great potential to be a great game for years to come, which is why I play it daily and support it. Really don't get the mentality that I'm gonna play and torture myself on a game I hate... for "X" reasons.

I could very well see PUP making it's way to FFXIV:ARR, just not until after the expansion though.

If you read stuff that I post, then you would already know the answer to your question. I play because of the friends I have made. I would not sub to this game if it was not for my FC and my static. I told them I am waiting until the expansion to see how things play out.

I also want the game to succeed as much as you do. I just don't like feeling like the dev team does not care about raiders. Yoshi and the dev team have made their goals clear several times and while other games are making moves to incentive raiding, this game does nothing of that sort. So, we will see what happens come the expansion.

[Risvertasashi]

I feel like the conversation has gone a bit off the rails here. Please remember:

This thread is not a request to bring in puppetmaster.
This thread is not a request to copy FFXI mechanics or endgame, etc.

What is it? A request for more complex, thought out, deep jobs. Comparable to some jobs/classes seen in other MMOs. I used a specific example of a job from XI I came across while surfing, but it's not the only example out there.

I'm not saying the more straightforward jobs should go away. I would just like to see some options at the other end of the spectrum.

[cryptic_angel]

I feel like the conversation has gone a bit off the rails here. Please remember:

This thread is not a request to bring in puppetmaster.
This thread is not a request to copy FFXI mechanics or endgame, etc.


What is it? A request for more complex, thought out, deep jobs. Comparable to some jobs/classes seen in other MMOs. I used a specific example of a job from XI I came across while surfing, but it's not the only example out there.

I'm not saying the more straightforward jobs should go away. I would just like to see some options at the other end of the spectrum.

I agree, I will list two things I think would improve the game.

I think we should have things like skill chains.

I would love to see a forth role consisting of pure buff/debuff/support, it would allow for fights to be tuned with bosses that hit harder, have higher dps checks, or are very healing intensive. Imagine needing a rdm or brd to debuff a boss enough so we could defeat it. I think with enough support jobs for the sake of variety, the aforementioned concept would be interesting.

I'd just be happy if they opened up the support skills a bit more. There are literally DOZENS of skills which would benefit other jobs which can't be used by that class. Why? Goodness only knows. Presumably because of some bizarre notion of balance, and yet these skills are undoubtedly useable by the class the job is built from.

So, just because I go from Gladiator to Paladin, I can't regen TP with Invigorate? Does equipping the stone make Paladins stupid? They even removed Thunder from Summoner's cast list for reasons unknown.

I guess that's my biggest gripe when it comes to 'customization'. There is literally none when it comes to skills. You have a handful of ones you can actually equip, and usually less than 5 of them are actually beneficial for your job. Much less than 5 if you're a Black Mage or Summoner.

Either they could give us some new equippable skills, where we're restricted to 1 new skill out of the selection. Or they could open up the cross-class skills to make them actually cross classes. Right now it feels more like an afterthought than any real attempt at character customization.

I agree with this sentiment 100%

Cross class skills should be interesting and more than "I'll take what ever to fill up the 4th and 5th spots on my cross class skill slots." There should be hard choices to be made, such as choosing between a reraise or a dps cd. I think there is a lot of potential in the cross class skill system and yet some jobs hardly benefit from it as stated in the post above. BLM is a great example of who gets the short end of the cross class skill stick.

[Hyrist]

I agree, I think we should have things like skill chains.

I would love to see a forth role consisting of pure buff/debuff/support, it would allow for fights to be tuned with bosses that hit harder, have higher dps checks, or are very healing intensive. Imagine needing a rdm or brd to debuff a boss enough so we could defeat it. I think with enough support jobs for the sake of variety, the aforementioned concept would be interesting.

I don't seen this happening - the support role.


Reason being is population balancing.

We're already leaning heavily on the side of DPS, so much that it's a 2:1 ratio in favor of DPS due to the role's popularity (or a 5/3 ratio in ST). Without expanding the base light party to 5, I don't see a way they could impliment it into duty finder or fights in general without worsening the bottle-neck issue with DPS we currently have.

I would like to see more support functions for classes, however. A straight support class? Not so much.

I'd like to see something along the lines of skill chains, however. If it can be balanced. One of the problems with FFXI's skillchain system is that it did narrow the viable field of classes initially due to players simply exploiting the most efficient group to skillchain with, and this problem repeatedly came up.

There would also be the concern on how it would work in this game. Fights are faster paced, combat isn't the same as it was in FFXI by a Wide Margin. Combat was a slow build and skillchains were to make use of these separate slow builds in a form of teamwork. The entire concept would likely not be recognizable from how we would remember it. Not to mention the difficulty coordinating such. Perhaps specific off-gdc skills could be used in tandem to make specific effects? There is a lot to think on as far as that subject goes.

[Gilthas]

It's like you made a straw man and now you are fighting with it or something? It's hilarious
I will just reiterate my statement again, I was never talking about ff11 as a whole.

Of course you weren't. You were just cherry-picking one of the two "complex" jobs of FFXI while calling FFXIV's rotations simplistic. Even though Puppetmaster wasn't really that complex and FFXIV's simple rotations simply blow away in complexity the "rotations" that the majority of FFXI jobs used.

They even removed Thunder from Summoner's cast list for reasons unknown.

They actually made a developer post to explain that. They removed Thunder from Summoner's to reign in their DPS.

This game isn't about creativity or problem solving through diversity of abilities - it's about following the dance they set for you - either grinding something - or following a script and not messing up. Team jump rope.

I love how you guys keep parroting this catch-phrase, team jump rope. So what exactly was a game where we used creativity or problem solving through diversity of abilities? FFXI? Lol.

[cryptic_angel]

Of course you weren't. You were just cherry-picking one of the two "complex" jobs of FFXI while calling FFXIV's rotations simplistic. Even though Puppetmaster wasn't really that complex and FFXIV's simple rotations simply blow away in complexity the "rotations" that the majority of FFXI jobs used.



They actually made a developer post to explain that. They removed Thunder from Summoner's to reign in their DPS.

I did not pick Pup, the thread did. Again, you are arguing with a point that I never made.