Why can't we have jobs with this level of depth and customization in FFXIV?

[Risvertasashi]

From what I understand, people want the ability to choose from a bunch of different "styles". They also want all them to be viable.

Ehm... that's a holy grail there. I know if they add something with deep customization, a lot of configurations won't be viable in high end group play. I'd be happy with best effort and just having that ability, though.

The problem with your example is you're mixing main stats with off stats/secondary stats. You can have crit without sacrificing STR, if only the pieces you need have that as an off stat. Rather than STR vs Crit, you should be fielding DET vs Crit. There's some interesting discussion to be had there but I feel that's better left to the horizontal progression threads.

[cryptic_angel]

From what I understand, people want the ability to choose from a bunch of different "styles". They also want all them to be viable.

I don't think it's a worthy venture because it'll only take a week or two to figure out which is the best style and you're a moron for not using said style. I saw this in another thread, "What if there was a STR specialized DRG and Crit specialized DRG? What happens when the theory-crafters figure out that Crit specialized shits all over STR spec in DPS and you decide you want to be STR spec? Guess what, you're booted for being STR spec. Come back when you're crit spec."

Other than that, I've never seen any of those people suggest a system that couldwork without basically ruining the balance SE seems to want to maintain. Although, the common retort is, "it's up to the devs to make it happen."

If I had to pick between a buffet where only a handful of food was good or vanilla paste cafe, I would take the buffet. I get your point and I agree with the notion that most raiders and min/max-ers would play the optimal setup; but, in a game where we can switch classes on a whim, I would enjoy playing "neat" classes, that might unperformed by 8-10%, in the myriad of other content outside of raiding.

I don't seen this happening - the support role.


Reason being is population balancing.

We're already leaning heavily on the side of DPS, so much that it's a 2:1 ratio in favor of DPS due to the role's popularity (or a 5/3 ratio in ST). Without expanding the base light party to 5, I don't see a way they could impliment it into duty finder or fights in general without worsening the bottle-neck issue with DPS we currently have.

I would like to see more support functions for classes, however. A straight support class? Not so much.

I'd like to see something along the lines of skill chains, however. If it can be balanced. One of the problems with FFXI's skillchain system is that it did narrow the viable field of classes initially due to players simply exploiting the most efficient group to skillchain with, and this problem repeatedly came up.

There would also be the concern on how it would work in this game. Fights are faster paced, combat isn't the same as it was in FFXI by a Wide Margin. Combat was a slow build and skillchains were to make use of these separate slow builds in a form of teamwork. The entire concept would likely not be recognizable from how we would remember it. Not to mention the difficulty coordinating such. Perhaps specific off-gdc skills could be used in tandem to make specific effects? There is a lot to think on as far as that subject goes.

I think a debuff class would have to come in the form how brd works in this game. Utilizing stances, modes, or dps/hps/tps losses to debuff/buff could allow for hybridization and we could see a class the mechanically would work different in a static raid group than how it works in DF or CT/ST.

I agree, any iterations of skill chains and debuff classes are most likely not going to be reconizable by ff11 players.

[Risvertasashi]

Like I already mentioned: Puppetmaster (or any job really) having a lot of setup and configuration possibilities is completely meaningless when only a very select few were viable. Puppetmaster didn't even have a viable endgame build. It was just a novelty job that was never taken seriously.

But there's no reason to say any such jobs will necessarily repeat that in XIV. And cryptic angle said it better than I can:

If I had to pick between a buffet where only a handful of food was good or vanilla paste cafe, I would take the buffet. I get your point and I agree with the notion that most raiders and min/max-ers would play the optimal setup; but, in a game where we can switch classes on a whim, I would enjoy playing "neat" classes, that might unperformed by 8-10%, in the myriad of other content outside of raiding.

And I'm expecting there to be more and more content outside of raiding as the game ages.

[Hyrist]

I think a debuff class would have to come in the form how brd works in this game. Utilizing stances, modes, or dps/hps/tps losses to debuff/buff could allow for hybridization and we could see a class the mechanically would work different in a static raid group than how it works in DF or CT/ST.

I agree, any iterations of skill chains and debuff classes are most likely not going to be reconizable by ff11 players.

I could see that be utalized in the same box slot we would have in a DPS. Heck, I might like to see Red Mage applied with those concepts, something fluid that could shift to meet the needs of the party/raid/group they're in.

Doesn't mean things can't be even better than now.

I don't like vertical progression so much, but I can't argue that, as you point out, it works. In the case of jobs, however, adding what we're seeking here doesn't require changes to the existing ones, or in any way subtract from the current systems. There is only the potential to add more to the game.

No, that's fine. I agree. I do feel, however, that such changes should be done with all due caution, and to balance that from the onset takes time.

This philosophy is part of the reason why I am in support of a Public Test Server as well, so we don't run into issues like we did with Hunts.

I just don't tolerate people interjecting into a conversation with the tone that they are better than those who've taken the time to disseminate issues. Again, it's bitter individuals who feel that no leeway should be given at all and negativity is both warranted and necessary. That top-down mentality, in my view, should be ostracized and unwelcome on all subjects and approaches.

I'll make a safe assumption in stating we're not here to ruin everyone else's time.

[Clicked]

Because we have a dungeon finder to get groups faster and SE already knows we have a wide variety of skill levels in random groups. Adding in "specs" that are just useless to the role that they are supposed to fill would just be an annoyance to the community at large.

Essentially because the game is built around set number of 3 specific roles in each group, they need jobs that can specialize in those roles. Hybrids and snowflakes are always useless in groups in the formula they are following for this game.

Even in FFXI there was customization but realistically if you wanted a good group you had only a set amount of choices per job.

[Risvertasashi]

-snip- there was customization but realistically if you wanted a good group you had only a set amount of choices per job.

Some choices are better than none, IMO.

[Gilthas]

Even in FFXI there was customization but realistically if you wanted a good group you had only a set amount of choices per job.

Sure, but people see that mages had a huge spell list and that melees could equip a variety of weapon types and go "FFXI had so much more depth!".

For that particular example, it's not the rotation, it's the setup and configuration possibilities.

Like I already mentioned: Puppetmaster (or any job really) having a lot of setup and configuration possibilities is completely meaningless when only a very select few were viable. Puppetmaster didn't even have a viable endgame build. It was just a novelty job that was never taken seriously.

[ApolloGenX]

Quite frankly, the only time I've seen lots of variety in play was in EQ... and that was done by a team that unabashedly told players they were using the "Vision" tm.

In other words, they said, "Yes there are lots of different playstyles and classes... but this is the holy trinity - tank,cc,cleric - DEAL WITH IT".

Players complained, but eventually just accepted it... there were still plenty of hybrid class players. You just knew if you played one of those "special" classes you would get a group.

Players nowadays don't seem to be as accepting of that idea... probably because gaming has moved so far away from the D&D rule set.

I love how you guys keep parroting this catch-phrase, team jump rope. So what exactly was a game where we used creativity or problem solving through diversity of abilities? FFXI? Lol.

Everquest - Devs would even watch to see how guilds would defeat encounters, since there were so many different ways they could be done. Many times things were defeated using strategies devs didn't even consider. I dunno how many times our high end guild defeated something only to have an invis dev pop up and congratulate us... we always knew they were there.... lurking... watching.... making sure there were no exploits going on.... sneeky hobbitzes!!

[Risvertasashi]

Of course you weren't. You were just cherry-picking one of the two "complex" jobs of FFXI while calling FFXIV's rotations simplistic.

For that particular example, it's not the rotation, it's the setup and configuration possibilities.

There is already a job like this, it's called Scholar.

Contrary to popular belief, dedicated "support" classes (as in, a class that does nothing other than buff/debuff) are not only the biggest pain in the ass to balance in any game environment, but they require an existing system to undergo thousands of dollars in alterations to accommodate said change.

SCH is one of the most fascinating jobs in the game, IMO. I actually think SE did pretty well here. I've seen shielding/mitigating healers before, but not pet based healers.

[Zumi]

In FFXIV there is a class/job system in place where every class and job gets an skill at set levels. Everyone has the same amount of abilities. This is not the case in FFXI, they didn't have this rule so you got jobs with lots of abilities and spells and jobs with much fewer.

Each job in FFXIV has a set role this isn't the same in FFXI, certain jobs like blu, and pup could be tailored to do different things.

This is a different game with different game systems what worked in FFXI won't necessarily work in FFXIV.