Please Do NOT Introduce Another Melee Tank

[JakzChurchill]

Old Republic experimented with a Tank class using ranged weaponry for a mainhand. It was actually pretty fun. It was convenient for gaining quick threat on distant mobs, but all the bread and butter threat abilities required mid-close range in order to be fully effective. A gunstaff or a bayonet tipped rifle sounds like it would be a lot of fun.

The problem is you can't really use other games as examples in this regard. If a game wants a ranged tank from the outset, which some do; they have to create game mechanics that reflect that. FFXIV does not, it's set up with melee ranged tanking only in mind. The game mechanics have been set to cater to this, and now that content has been released there's no changing.

This is where it becomes a waste of a weapon, being that a weapon can only be used for one class, setting a melee class with a ranged weapon takes it away from a class that could use it to its fullest.

As an example imagine a gunblade dps class, where the rotation caters to switching between melee and gunfire, or a corsair type class where buffs are given in a small aoe around the player but every GCD attack can be activated from range and melee just with different animations. You give gunblade to tank, you just get another tank who instead of throwing a shield or tomohawk, shoots their gun, creating a whole new class for basically the sake of an animation.

I've noticed the other side of this with people asking for damaging weapons to be used with healers, it becomes a waste of the weapon. These ideas would work in a system that XI had, but in XIV you take that weapon away from a class that would put it too use, just so your healing class can look like its not healing?

[reivaxe]

A gun/ Gunblade is a weapon that a DPS can use to its fullest

Cause this game needs more DPS roles! :v

After Ninja I would more than welcome a healing/ tank tree like the ACH set up for Guns/ Gunblades. Would be a much welcomed change up.

[JakzChurchill]

Didn't say it would be the next job, just that certain weapons are fitting for certain class types and that wasting a weapon on the wrong class type would be a huge shame. You do realise that there will be more dps classes , most likely a couple in the expansion along with the tank and healer that has been stated.

And change for the sake of change is never good, if there is to be a change up to the classes with something that completely defies the current set up it needs to be a thoroughly thought out idea and not just a creation for the sake of being different.

[Adler]

More or less read only OP post and thought about statement that Samurai is same as Warrior. In my impression Warrior is nomad dude that swings his axe like crazy but Samurai is a calm man that use every swing of his sword with purpose and precision. They could easily make Samurai tank with same idea as Ninja seem to be - switching stances and using single attack skills that are not directly put in any kind of combos, so no "more damage/added effect if used after X skill" but having to decide which attack/stance use next and which not according to current situation. Make Samurai a standing fortress that watch enemies trying to predict their moves and reacting accordingly.

[Reynhart]

I posted this on another thread, but I can't remember which one

I'd imagine Samurai to be a "counter tank". No basic damage mitigation, but some stances that reduce one type of incoming damage and counter. And then, you'd have one combo that puts you in "spell counterstance", another on "auto-attack couterstance", and another in "physical skill couterstance". Each counterstance would only lasts few seconds (6 like Inner Beast could be enough), so timing would be the key. Pretty much like the Swordmaster in Bravely Default (Which could be the name of the class )

And one skill could be something like Perfect Balance, that allows your next weapon skills to gain full benefits of combo without needing the previous steps for a short duration.

[Rbstr]

Swordmaster is a great theme template for a tank, but I really dislike the idea of short-term type-specific mitigation being the main survival scheme.
Especially when the other tanks have very little of that. To balance it they'd have to be very powerful but getting it wrong would leave you dead. It's the full-evasion tank problem: You either trivialize it or make it impossible.
Perhaps if they were longer maim-style/se/sp style buffs/debuffs so you could have fairly high up time, but have to make a choice since you can't keep them all up at once.

I think he gets partial evasion, so he can dodge a part of an attacks damage. I like having a more a la carte skill approach. But I think it's hard to get away from having at least the one hate-combo. Perhaps rather than two main combo paths, like war/pal he really has one combo but with many finishers.

You've then got:
Paly, who can stand there and take it because it barely gets through his hardened defenses
War, who badasses his way though the things thrown at him because he does what he wants
and Swd/Sam, who's more lithe and hard to get a clean hit on and redirects the enemy's blows

[Reynhart]

Full-evasion tank is a problem when it's passive, thus unreliable even if you're an experienced player. If you can proc it when you want with precise timing and enough knowledge of content, it's skill based.
It's precisely interesting because other tanks don't have that. That means "Swordmaster" would be something really new, gameplay wise.

To balance it, they'd potentially deal more damage than PLD and WAR, not thanks to their combos, but thanks to their counterattacks.
Of course some of their weapon skills would have an enmity boost, because you can't really tank without it anyway. It's not like the same skill can't have emity boost and an additionnal effect (Like Rage Of Halone)

FFXIV already separate jobs by skill/efficiency ratio. An average DRG can do more DPS than an average MNK, but a good MNK can do better than a good DRG.
Although it's more blurry, I think that a very good WAR can tank better than a very good PLD, but that also requires more skill. SWD/SAM would be the next step.

[reivaxe]

Didn't say it would be the next job, just that certain weapons are fitting for certain class types and that wasting a weapon on the wrong class type would be a huge shame. You do realise that there will be more dps classes , most likely a couple in the expansion along with the tank and healer that has been stated.

And change for the sake of change is never good, if there is to be a change up to the classes with something that completely defies the current set up it needs to be a thoroughly thought out idea and not just a creation for the sake of being different.

Of course there's gonna be other DPS classes ...but DPS is about to get Ninja aka the "coolest" class most people can seem to think of (I tots expect to see at least half of all DPS I know flock to that class) and guns are the only other weapon we know that's coming after that in some form .. and SE says we're getting new healing and tank classes. The last thing we need after Ninja is the introduction of yet an other DPS class before tanks and healers get classes and SE says that the Gun class will be something unexpected (I expect DPS when I hear gun ...).

Giving players a new tank class that can pull aggro from afar and use more long/ mid ranged/ CC skills to grab hate through the use of guns sounds far more interesting than what you seem to see it as imo.

[Reynhart]

Giving players a new tank class that can pull aggro from afar and use more long/ mid ranged/ CC skills to grab hate through the use of guns sounds far more interesting than what you seem to see it as imo.

Pulling aggro from afar already exists : It's called Provoke + Shield Lob/Tomahawk.

The problem with mid/long ranged skills is that you can't prevent a monster from coming near you for a long time, because it'd obviously be overpowered against monters that don't have long-ranged attack. And if the mob is near, you're not a ranged-tank anymore.

[Adler]

I posted this on another thread, but I can't remember which one

I'd imagine Samurai to be a "counter tank". No basic damage mitigation, but some stances that reduce one type of incoming damage and counter. And then, you'd have one combo that puts you in "spell counterstance", another on "auto-attack couterstance", and another in "physical skill couterstance". Each counterstance would only lasts few seconds (6 like Inner Beast could be enough), so timing would be the key. Pretty much like the Swordmaster in Bravely Default (Which could be the name of the class )

And one skill could be something like Perfect Balance, that allows your next weapon skills to gain full benefits of combo without needing the previous steps for a short duration.

It would be very nice to have a tank that can more or less only do decent damage if he/she can manage to keep hate - direct attack skills generate enmity but almost no damage while some sort of "counter" skills do good amount of damage to mobs that tank can hold aggro on.