Rogue/Ninja Starting Class?

[silentwindfr]

Honestly, I'm about 60-40 on which way this will head. I recognize your arguments and those of several other posters here but I also acknowledge things the Devs have said along with their overarching concepts for the game. Two things make me think he wont start gating classes and jobs behind level or story requirements until after the first official expansion and they are:
- Yoshi-P's repeated statement on accessibility to all ranges of player types (those "filthy" casuals)
- Yoshi-P saying he felt this particular class/job was missing from the original lineup and this is why we are seeing it before the expansion.

i want to answer to that part in particular, since it seems to be a misunderstanding from your part on this (if you allows me).

" - Yoshi-P's repeated statement on accessibility to all ranges of player types "
he means there, that it will recquire nothing special or skill or time sink for get acces to something. the story quest, is not a time sink, it's the backbone of the whole game, it's can't and mustn't be ignored. it's what make this game what it is. get a level 50 and do the story quest are accessible to anybody, the only difference will be time... but we already have seen that it was not a trouble for them, with the relic quest... it's accessible, however it ask a long dedication.

" - Yoshi-P saying he felt this particular class/job was missing from the original lineup and this is why we are seeing it before the expansion. "
yes, like he feel that a two hand sword and gunner class are missing too. sadly they will not be a starting class, he was simply saying that the order of how the class will be added was look at... mostly for decide what was the most important and urgent to be added. not that it must be a starting class.
he was just saying that the game was missing this and was needed.

all of this for say, i highly doubt that any class that will come from now (exept rare exeption like class tie to a race, and even that i doubt they will do it) will be added to the roster of the starting class, they will all be unlocked through our story quest or progression in the world.
see it like this... you are beginning to your city and begin to explore the world, discovering new technique and new way to fight. that how it work...

ps; i still think that one class will maybe be added in the roster to the starting class and it will be probably the gunner class that was asked for more of 4 years now. but even this can't be sure. (it's the only other class that have a guild appearing somewhere with a sign and place already installed)

[Niwashi]

Don't confuse slightly modified NPC text lines with them arranging 8+ instances of storylines for every Ninja quest

Yeah, they can't possibly have different characters see different NPCs involved in the same quest. That's why we were all invited to join the Scions by the same character. Except...oh yeah...we weren't. [/sarcasm off] SE hasn't shown any reluctance so far about having multiple versions of the same event. I'm not sure why some players are so adamant that they couldn't have any additional quests diverge, despite having quite a few that already do.

And different NIN quest-givers is only one of the possible ways a story divergence might be used. Another (perhaps more likely) one would be to just tweak a few dialog lines in Yugiri's current story, so that for players getting there after NIN is in the game, her fighting style is rare and unusual but not wholly unique in Eorzea.

I think the problem with the opponents to Yugiri being the trainer is that they are formulating nonsensical ideas on how you will learn Ninja arts. As far as we know Yugiri and her crew are the only people who hail from Doma as far as we are concerned.

I think you're confusing trainer with quest-giver. That's why I brought up the comparison to the scholar quests earlier. We have no trainer as a scholar. We have a quest-giver who's simply a marauder who read about them in an old book and got curious. We learn the job on our own. There's nothing "nonsensical" about the idea we might learn the NIN job on our own as well (particularly since it seems it's really the job stones that teach us jobs anyway).

Now, there is a reference to Yugiri providing some training, but that might come much later, after we've already gotten the job stone and gone through 20 levels of learning it on our own (or from someone else) first. She might only be providing the more advanced training for the post-50 quests. That doesn't automatically imply she has to give us the first quest as well.

So, lets see... a few possibilities:
1) At level 30, we find a NIN job stone and learn the art on our own until, 20 levels later, Yugiri shows up and teaches us some more advanced uses of it.
2) At level 30, we learn the NIN job from Yugiri without knowing who she is, so when we later meet her in the storyline, we think it's the first time we've seen her. (Only the inherent secrecy of the NIN art makes this possibility feasible.) In the next post-50 NIN job quest we find out that our secretive trainer is really Yugiri.
3) Yugiri isn't really the only ninja around. At level 30, we start training with another ninja, who preceded Yugiri in coming to Eorzea. After level 50, Yugiri takes over our training.

Well, there's several that would work. If SE is inventive enough (which they are) they can probably come up with a few more. And of these three, I don't think the first two should need any changes to what's already in place, and the third only needs a few minor dialog tweaks of the sort already in place for many other quests.


It seems there's no real need for SE to make NIN an exclusively post-50 job. Of course, they could if they want to, but I see little reason to assume they'd want to.

[NoctisUmbra]

Late to this thread, but I figured that Rogue being unlocked via a small quest added to the MSQ line was a given... lore wise it's the only thing that makes sense.

[MageBlack]

Thank you for the reply! Just to clarify, i'm not really bothered either way by how they do it but I did want to expand on a few points. I do understand the Lore argument you keep coming back to, it's the reason I'm not 100% so i have no argument against that, only questions about how they could handle it.

" - Yoshi-P's repeated statement on accessibility to all ranges of player types "
he means there, that it will recquire nothing special or skill or time sink for get acces to something. the story quest, is not a time sink, it's the backbone of the whole game, it's can't and mustn't be ignored. it's what make this game what it is. get a level 50 and do the story quest are accessible to anybody, the only difference will be time... but we already have seen that it was not a trouble for them, with the relic quest... it's accessible, however it ask a long dedication.

You seem to think that by adding in the classes from the start one would have to ignore the story that currently exists. I have never said that, only presented some ideas for possible ways to circumvent, supplement, or enhance what is already there. I have seen many other posts here with ideas on how it could work and if fans can come up with ways, I'm pretty sure the devs could too, and in a much better way too.

The other points you made are valid, it could be very easily gated behind level restrictions, that would be the easy route but only lore wise. How would it work? You hit 50, unlock rogue(?) and you are level one? or is rogue a starting class but you can't be a ninja until you unlock it through the story making you be a rogue until level 50? I'm not sure how it would work, but i'm sure there is a way.

" - Yoshi-P saying he felt this particular class/job was missing from the original lineup and this is why we are seeing it before the expansion. "
yes, like he feel that a two hand sword and gunner class are missing too. sadly they will not be a starting class, he was simply saying that the order of how the class will be added was look at... mostly for decide what was the most important and urgent to be added. not that it must be a starting class. he was just saying that the game was missing this and was needed.

http://www.tale-ffxiv.com/boards/top...-e3-interview/

When was the decision made to add a class before the expansion?

We do have plans to release new jobs and new classes at the expansion; it wasn't like we took a job and class from that expansion and decided to release it early. We've always planned to release a new class and new job at a patch.

We've always thought that we needed a scout or a technical type of class. It's one thing that we didn't have in FFXIV and we wanted it, especially with the release of the large scale PvP. We wanted a class or a job that could do the scouting and stealth type of actions, so it was just natural to bring in that type of class to coincide with PvP and that type of content. The fact that the players have been begging for a thief-type class or a ninja-type class for a long time, we're happy that we can bring that to the fans ahead of the time that they expected.

The interview I got this from had the actual reasons for adding it, I'll copy it here and let you take what you will from it. what I took from it could mean it is intended to be something we will have access to from the start of the game. He didnt add it because of the weapon, he added it because a stealth class was missing. Stealth would be useful as a starting class moreso than the other classes you mentioned since it brings a new element of play to the game. The musketeer is "just another ranged" and will play its own unique way but does not bring anything new to way the game is played. Same with two handed sword, just a new weapon you swing and hit stuff with.

Now, despite what I just said about it, it could still function the same way behind gated content. Also one of the reasons he gave in the article was PvP specifically frontlines and that is restricted to level 50 so if thats the only reason it would fit well with it still being gated behind lore and levels.

Hope this clarifies my position a bit! Cheers!

[ZReport]

Yeah, they can't possibly have different characters see different NPCs involved in the same quest. That's why we were all invited to join the Scions by the same character. Except...oh yeah...we weren't. SE hasn't shown any reluctance so far about having multiple versions of the same event. I'm not sure why some players are so adamant that they couldn't have any additional quests diverge, despite having quite a few that already do.

And different NIN quest-givers is only one of the possible ways a story divergence might be used. Another (perhaps more likely) one would be to just tweak a few dialog lines in Yugiri's current story, so that for players getting there after NIN is in the game, her fighting style is rare and unusual but not wholly unique in Eorzea.



I think you're confusing trainer with quest-giver. That's why I brought up the comparison to the scholar quests earlier. We have no trainer as a scholar. We have a quest-giver who's simply a marauder who read about them in an old book and got curious. We learn the job on our own. There's nothing "nonsensical" about the idea we might learn the NIN job on our own as well (particularly since it seems it's really the job stones that teach us jobs anyway).

Now, there is a reference to Yugiri providing some training, but that might come much later, after we've already gotten the job stone and gone through 20 levels of learning it on our own (or from someone else) first. She might only be providing the more advanced training for the post-50 quests. That doesn't automatically imply she has to give us the first quest as well.

So, lets see... a few possibilities:
1) At level 30, we find a NIN job stone and learn the art on our own until, 20 levels later, Yugiri shows up and teaches us some more advanced uses of it.
2) At level 30, we learn the NIN job from Yugiri without knowing who she is, so when we later meet her in the storyline, we think it's the first time we've seen her. (Only the inherent secrecy of the NIN art makes this possibility feasible.) In the next post-50 NIN job quest we find out that our secretive trainer is really Yugiri.
3) Yugiri isn't really the only ninja around. At level 30, we start training with another ninja, who preceded Yugiri in coming to Eorzea. After level 50, Yugiri takes over our training.

Well, there's several that would work. If SE is inventive enough (which they are) they can probably come up with a few more. And of these three, I don't think the first two should need any changes to what's already in place, and the third only needs a few minor dialog tweaks of the sort already in place for many other quests.


It seems there's no real need for SE to make NIN an exclusively post-50 job. Of course, they could if they want to, but I see little reason to assume they'd want to.

Terrible comparison. The entire Scions bit is the process of tying your Company affiliation with the Scions of the Seventh Dawn. Of course there were going to be 3 different versions of you joining the Scions, the main storyline continues from that point on with you as a Scion first, Company Member second. This is vastly different from having some generic Ninja trainer and Yugiri, who would be handing you the same exact quest, complete with the same dialogue and cutscenes.

I see "trainer" and quest-giver as the exact same thing in this game. Regardless of who's giving you the quest, you're still gaining the rewards and new skills via said quest that they give you.

1) Why would Yugiri suddenly show up when you're level 50? There's no point to this possibility, because it shows a lack of influence that Yugiri should have on the questline. She would be there at 30, and be the one giving you the job stone. Lets not forget that there are abilities that you learn at 30, 35, 40, 45 as well. We not going to learn the abilities "on our own."

2) This makes more plausible sense, because it's an attempt to sidestep continuity. The only problem with this is the fact that the overall 2.2 story would have to be changed to accompany this addition. Why? Because you would have to solve the continuity problem that arises by Yugiri being in Eorzea training Ninja when she's supposed to be on the Doman boat coming right out as Alphinaud is there to be the first to greet her -- this would happen if you as the player haven't completed "The Mother of Exiles" 2.2 Story Quest. That entire scene would have to be removed from the player's storyline or altered severely to accompany the fact that they've already met Yugiri prior.

Yet another continuity problem would have to be solved -- Yugiri training Ninja before her compatriots have found reasonable security in Mor Dhona. Yugiri only felt comfortable going with the Rogue Guild members to train because she knew her compatriots and family were in good hands in Mor Dhona. She even says as such in the storyline. Why would she be suddenly be training Ninja before the exodus of her people to Mor Dhona? Where did she find the time between meeting with the Sultanate and the Syndicate to train Ninja adventurers?

You know Yugiri was still on the boat the entire time because of this dialogue:

Yugiri: Much and more has occurred since first I beheld Eorzea from the galleon's deck. Suffice it to say, I did not envisage being invited to play a part in your noble struggle. (She's talking about traveling to Ul'Dah and the Sahagin/Leviathan encounter.)

3) Also doesn't make sense, but it's not outside the realm of of possibility. It would also require an altering of the 2.2 story, but it would solve the continuity problems I've stated in #2. What more, it could be some cool storyline based on Shadow from FFVI who somehow got dimension-displaced.

Ninja isn't going to be some post-50 job where they suddenly get more abilities than the jobs already in game. It will follow the exact same quest:reward ratio that every other job has provided.

A couple of things I think people missed:

You report your victory over Leviathan to a grateful Merlwyb, who pronounces you her nation's greatest ally. Apparently inspired by your philanthropic endeavors, she subsequently pledges to send provisions to the Doman refugees at Revenant's Toll. Keen to repay this act of kindness, Yugiri, in turn, offers to share knowledge of her Far Eastern martial art with any who would learn. In response to her concern that the style may seem outlandish to Eorzeans, Thancred reveals that there are individuals in Limsa Lominsa who are more than capable of adapting to the techniques. Though the details yet remain hazy, you sense that interesting times lie ahead for you and your fellow adventurers.

Quest Log after "Lord of the Whirl."

Zanthael gives you a letter of introduction from Merlwyb, which should grant Yugiri access to the Lominsan underworld. Take the letter to the southern area of the lower decks, and show it to the inconspicuous man.

"Despite Zanthael's earlier warnings, the inconspicuous man extends Yugiri the warmest of Lominsan welcomes. Duly heartened, she declares her intent to study the fighting techniques employed by his fraternity, and expresses her hope that you will be her student when the time is ripe."

Quest Log after you "When Yugiri Met the Fraternity."

When next you meet Lady Minfilia, pray relay to her my humblest thanks. Would that I could do so in person, but I must needs fulfill my promise to the Admiral. Till we meet again, Warrior of Light.

Dialogue after "When Yugiri Met the Fraternity."

Not sure how many more examples people want that points to Yugiri being the quest giver/trainer for Ninja. SE isn't going to go back and add stuff to the 2.2 storyline to solve a simple continuity problem that solves itself by completing the quests.

[MirielleLavandre]

I'm done with all of the main story that is presently available, but I think that no matter what the lore, PR will rule the day. Sure, lore is nice and all - and all this 'retcon' is bad talk does make some sense, but at the end of the day, SE doesn't need the kind of negative press that releasing a truly hyped new class/job and then making it require someone to have 'beat the game' (as far as having a max level char and beaten 2.2 is concerned) would entail. They will make rogue be available @ lvl 1 and NIN @lvl 30, just as in all classes/jobs currently available - I'd bet on it. Though I agree it doesn't make any sense lore-wise, lore doesn't pay SE's bills.

[LineageRazor]

A couple of things I think people missed:

Again, just as with the previous quest dialog you posted, this only indicates that Yugiri would LIKE to teach you. It is completely neutral as to whether or not she will actually be your teacher. It is also neutral as to whether you might have already learned some Ninja abilities.

SE has NOT written themselves into a corner. They have an enormous number of options, many of them stated in this thread, that will allow Rogue and Ninja to be accessable BEFORE the 2.2 storyline that will not upset lore in any significant manner - and as for the minor manners, these can be corrected with minor dialogue changes that are triggered by whether or not you've unlocked the class/job at that point, similar to the aformentioned quest dialog changes you get when doing a quest involving guildmasters that depend on whether or not you've unlocked/leveled that class before you do the quest.

These are NOT farfetched. They are narratively sound options.

SE has options - but will they USE these options, or take the easy way out and make the class/job an "advanced" job, forcing the player to complete through 2.2 before they can unlock them? That I can't say. Sometimes SE is amazingly thorough, sometimes they take shortcuts that make me facepalm *COUGHhuntsCOUGH*.

One thing I predict: IF Ninja is available pre-2.2 cutscenes, Yugiri will NEVER be our teacher, regardless of her desire to be. Not for unlocking Ninja, not for only the level 50 Ninja quest, and not for any higher-level quests in the future, after the level cap is raised. This, too, is narratively sound - an individual will not always get what they want, and Yugiri is no exception to that rule.

[MageBlack]

Again, just as with the previous quest dialog you posted, this only indicates that Yugiri would LIKE to teach you. It is completely neutral as to whether or not she will actually be your teacher. It is also neutral as to whether you might have already learned some Ninja abilities.

SE has NOT written themselves into a corner. They have an enormous number of options, many of them stated in this thread, that will allow Rogue and Ninja to be accessable BEFORE the 2.2 storyline that will not upset lore in any significant manner - and as for the minor manners, these can be corrected with minor dialogue changes that are triggered by whether or not you've unlocked the class/job at that point, similar to the aformentioned quest dialog changes you get when doing a quest involving guildmasters that depend on whether or not you've unlocked/leveled that class before you do the quest.

These are NOT farfetched. They are narratively sound options.

SE has options - but will they USE these options, or take the easy way out and make the class/job an "advanced" job, forcing the player to complete through 2.2 before they can unlock them? That I can't say. Sometimes SE is amazingly thorough, sometimes they take shortcuts that make me facepalm *COUGHhuntsCOUGH*.

One thing I predict: IF Ninja is available pre-2.2 cutscenes, Yugiri will NEVER be our teacher, regardless of her desire to be. Not for unlocking Ninja, not for only the level 50 Ninja quest, and not for any higher-level quests in the future, after the level cap is raised. This, too, is narratively sound - an individual will not always get what they want, and Yugiri is no exception to that rule.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Yugiri never said she would teach you specifically, I thought it was more along of lines of sharing her skills with Eorzeans as way of earning their keep for being allowed to seek refuge here and even that doesnt necessarily mean She will teach anyone personally. Its how a leader speaks when speaking for their followers. Also i seem to recall mention of other Domans that had come over and defected or scouted. I highly doubt this is the first ever contact with Domans and their Culture seeing as how Yshtola and the others are somewhat familiar with who they are and where they came from. Ninjas are by rights a secretive group, striking from shadows.

Also, I dont understand how people think it will function being gated. I have heard that to keep lore consistent it should be gated but I havent heard any suggestions on HOW it will be gated. You hit 50, unlock rogue(?) and you are level one? or is rogue a starting class but you can't be a ninja until you unlock it through the story making you be a rogue until level 50? Or will rogue start at level 50 and you will have to unlock and learn skills through quests that teach you how to use them? do we get all the skills normally earned through levelling right away if we start at 50? I'm not sure how it would work, but i'm sure there is a way. Personally though I think that they cant gate a class behind content levelling. Jobs are a different matter but even so, the first Job for the class would have to be obtainable at level 30 like the others are. What would make sense gating behind levels or content would be more advanced jobs like Red Mage that would require Conjuror, Thaumaturge, and Gladiator. and that would just be a secondary job, not the first job.

I wasnt arguing, just trying to add to some of the things you have said.

[NoctisUmbra]

You guys realize that the Yoshi-P and the dev team as well as the lore team, etc, knew that RGE>NIN was going to be the next addition to FFXIV a good while in advance right? Likely since, or even before, 2.0 launch.

Now answer this:

Given that it would incredibly simpler to just stick to the beastmen storyline through 2.2 and when 2.4 comes, simply introduce a new guild for RGE and a new NPC for NIN so that it RGE is available from the beginning of the MSQ, why did SE go to such lengths to introduce Yugiri as a Ninja who "brings new techniques from the far east" and furthermore beef up Thancred backstory all of a sudden with the Fraternity of thieves (rogues, essentially) and make Thancred and Yugiri have a whole moment where they acknowledge the synergy between their movements (suggesting the rogue > nin continuity)?

I suppose that question ended up being rather verbose, but the point should be clear as day.

Especially to anyone who played through to the end of 1.0, we're no stranger to seeing this dev team wrap new additions to the game or changes to mechanics in some form of lore - even somewhat trivial/cosmetic systems such as glamours or aesthetician. They get rich representation.

Why would they go through all the trouble to lay the foundation for the coming new class and job in the storyline continuity, so that it can be experienced in a rather "LIVE" way (which, btw, is one of the 3 key words that Yoshi-P used to express the design philosophy they will have when redesigning FFXIV back from 1.0), if in the end what they plan to do is introduce some random "secret Ninja that came long before Yugiri" and outright break the storyline sequence where Thancred sees Yugiri fight and reverts to his old techniques (because if he's been seeing you use those techniques all along, that entire cutscene makes zero sense), why go through all he trouble?

[lololink]

Because 2.2 was a teasing, Job/class quests are separated from the storylines.

Nanamo didn't even know my name in the Culinarian questline...