Can we just have the Wrath of the Lich King Raiding Scheme?

[Fendred]

LOL Sorry but WoW is a casual base game that tosses some hardcore stuff here and there.... wonder why these "hardcore" gamers burn through WoW's stuff in a few days

Depends on what time period, expansion, or raid you are talking about. It's a game with a long and rich history that over the course of its life appealed to many audiences. Wrath of the Lich King's raiding was a wonderful balance of different difficulties and colorful encounters. If you are referring to groups like blue garter, the only content in existence that would be an effective challenge would be something like Absolute Virtue from FFXI. People literally passed out on the floor from trying to do that fight for hours.

[farnfarn64]

So basically people want a 30 percent buff so they can take on the Lich King?

I loved Wrath of the Lich King, I still think that the mechanics and fights in second coil is not at the level of heroic raids. I think it is closer to the normal modes. I never was able to beat Lich King on normal, but I cleared turn 9. I am not really that good at these games, but if I can clear it it means its not really as hard as people make it out to be.

[Zaero]

So...make game more like WoW, which will end up with people complaining that this game turned into WoW.
..

[Krr]

So basically people want a 30 percent buff so they can take on the Lich King?

Nnot really? We have that, it's called Echo.
Basically, here's the thing. The current endgame has two styles of encounter - "Nothing-you-do-matters-so-just-play-halfassed" Tower, and extreme/coil encounters where the entire party instantly dies to one person making a misstep in the DDR pattern. Even not-so-fantastic statics can eventually try together at a fight to slowly batter this into everyone's muscle memory, but it means that pug groups experience a pretty strict binary - people who can do the entire fight and people who can't. This is why party finders chant "have clear" so much - it's a waste of time to risk having to teach a player a fight they'll need weeks more of attempts to have nailed.

Something that fits a middle ground between "you don't even need to try" and "just one mistake = everyone dies" is missing. The latter very much predicates statics, which leaves people who want to be able to make a serious effort without anything to do if their schedule can't accomodate or personal progression isn't keeping up with the herd. Hence 'midcore content'. Not as a measure of skill, but as a measure of personal ability to throw time and energy into a video game. It also means it's easy to mount frustration on other players when they fail because the penalty for even slight failure is so extreme for such a group - which is what leads to the impatience and frustration in the modern Party Finder.

(IME, trying to pug clears in the current endgame is literally a waste of time. You pretty much only use PF to fail and then try to pick up the people who weren't failing and hope they want to come back later. This is a PRETTY LONG process, though.)

[Malzian]

Hmmm... Another forum with another "Make <this MMO> the same as <some other MMO I liked>" thread... The fact is that Yoshida wanted XIV to be systemically different from other MMOs. Yes, same basic concepts, but presented in a different way. In truth it's not even fair to compare MMOs of such differing design philosophies to one another and, really, if people wanted the system designs from another MMO... Well, they'd just go play that MMO. I liked gameplay in Tera a lot... I don't go asking for BAMs in this one (though we do get something similar in boss FATEs).

I agree that there are too many 'muscle memory' mechanics in current end game, and it has amazed me to see the level of threatening and profanity used in PF for people who aren't 100% on the fight so those seeking can make sure to get that shiny trinket they've been grinding so hard for. But maybe that speaks a bit more for the difficulty vs. drop rate vs. lockouts vs. content gating that goes on... Either way, "Make it like <some other MMO>" is never a way to solve an issue like this and you'll only succeed in making the game that much more generic, which is no way to advance the genre.

[Vladislav]

Totally agree with OP . I know tonn ppl's that hit "wall" in T5 & Extremes , so why not let ppl's get their fun . Different difficultes may even drop totally different "tier" of gear , but still i pretty much sure this system will 100% work this game . By just looking how many ppl's Paying gills to mercs , only for bit moment of winning/happy , this ppl's mostly not even "need" any specific drop from Ex & Coil (maybe only if as small "present")

[TheRogueX]

every raid group in existence used deadly boss mods back in the day

lol. Really? Every raid group? I guess we are talking about post-BC WoW players here, so it makes sense. It's like calling CoD players 'pro.'

[Virtuso]

But that's where things like Heroic (Savage) mode comes in...although from what I heard people are suspecting that it's not even possible to meet Savage difficulty's numerical requirements with current gear (could use a citation for this though).

Actually a Japanese party has already cleared Savage mode. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFNSUewb7CI

[Dano]

I don't get it, isn't savage mode = hard mode? then that makes the SCOB normal mode.

[Noel_Clover]

What I'm understanding from this is that OP feels that the difficulty of Coil is a little high and wants an easier mode. This easier mode will be renamed Normal Mode, while our current level of Coil will be Hard and Savage Extreme or... something. I would like to point out that the current mode is, indeed, Normal Mode. The thing I see from all this is really that you, dear OP, simply feel that the bar is a little too high for what you consider "Normal", which is, a matter of perception.

EG: I feel that playing Guilty Gear on anything other than Maniac is easy, my friend feels that playing anything other than Lunatic on Touhou is normal. While I feel that playing Touhou on anything other than Normal is pretty damn hard and he feels that playing Guilty Gear on anything other than Normal is nuts, it doesn't change our perception towards the individual games. This is because we've gotten to heights where our perceptions towards "Normal" and the bar is a little different from that of many others. Note, this is okay, because difficulty is really a matter of perception in this case.

I recently did t5 in a learning group with i90+i100 gear. We didn't clear it. I was nervous as hell before going through it mind you, but when I did I actually laughed. Oh god, the whole thing was so laughably easy. Sure, we wiped at Snakes, but people blew snakes up early and I didn't have enough heals thrown on me to survive four snakes. That and DPS were getting tired at that point I believe. Also, some silly mistakes from puggers, but it was otherwise all around... easy. Have I gone to t6? Nope. Do I think it will also be as laughably easy once I figure the whole thing out? Yes.

So what's wrong? Is the bar elevated too high for people to actually challenge?

Pfft. Hardly. I would say that the gaming level of the community is terribly low ((HoTs before pulls/spawns + over heals, tanks who don't use CDs or AoEs, DPS who don't use their buffs or disengage as required, players who would rather ignore game mechanics because it's so much easier to burn a boss you can't burn for example)) and the idea of lowering the bar is hilarious.

For the healer who points out that he can do things perfectly but mess up because of a pug, I'm sorry for your terrible experiences. That doesn't make a good reason for lowering the difficulty of Coil though. Players needing to "git gud" is never a good reason for content nerf.

I feel that the bar set for the content is just right. Players just need to step up to the challenge.

Before we go to the "WoW examples, WoW standards!" I would like to point out that WoW has been made easy over the last few years. I didn't really play WotLK, but from what I've been told from the Ye-Olde-Raiders-From-Yonder-Days it's laughably easy compared to the old days of raiding and the like, especially with add-ons. Also, I would like to point out that the use of add-ons and the like have, in my humble opinion, dulled the killing edge sense that gamers developed. Your idea of "stare at the HP/cast bar" is rather off. People who didn't have the wonderful little tool we now know as add-ons simply looked towards the cast/HP bar, took an overall look at their cooldowns, positions and made a quick decision in what would amount to less-than-one-whole-standard-GCD in this game. The closest thing to a add-on notification was that instinctual gut feeling telling you "Disengage soon".

And that's "Medium-Core".