Are cracks in the Armoury System beginning to surface?

[Physic]

The Classes are not Generic in any way. They are all in fact very diverse and each have there own individual perks. I'm afraid it is you my friend who is generic. You are clearly building all of your Classes the same way and that is why they feel the same.

I personally have 5 different types of builds I use. Reactionary, Power Damage, Melee Mage, AOE Melee and Damage Absorption.

No one can honestly say this game is just a bunch of generic classes. There are so many different ways to play. If you can't figure that out it means you yourself only like playing one way.

I think he means the classes themselves dont define much, the problem is they should have made something higher than disciplines to simulate classes. Disciplines are just disciplines, they provide different skills that make sense for that discipline, your role is something else.

Also i would say disciplines are little more generic now, the differences in melee have gone down a lot with the basic ability timers being 30-60 seconds. The skills sets you can make have only changed a bit, due to mp being huge now, but the actual difference between diciplines, over all is lower.

[AdvancedWind]

Well, I personally think someone who did take the time to level multiple classes should indeed be far more effective than someone who leveled just one. That's absolutely fair, considering the nature of the Armoury System, and I personally don't see anything wrong with that.

Also, you DID bring up a good point about jobs. Indeed, depending on how it's done, there's the very real chance that a GLA with multiple classes leveled end up being a better tank than a Paladin GLA with limited skill access. However, once again, I don't see that as something inherently 'bad', for two reasons

1 - Jobs won't exactly prevent you from using skills from dif classes, will just limit which ones you can take. I'm assuming that, for example, a PLD will still be able to use most skills related to their role - IE: Tanking -, regardless of the class that learns the skill. So, they would still be able to use stuff such as MRD provokes, while losing access to things that aren't really currently used for tanking, such as elemental nukes.

2 - If a vanilla, multi-leveled GLA indeed works better than a Glaladin, it still seems fair enough considering the time invested on leveling the other classes, which could turn out into something like

- Plain Gla: Regular tank, regular / good soloer, low time investment
- GLaladin: Good tank, bad soloer, mid time investment, may be improved by leveling more classes
- Heavy cross skilled gla: Very good tank, good soloer, heavy time investment

Of course, this is all speculation. Also, I do believe that, regardless of how the job system is done, there will be strategies and situations where using a regular class will be 'better' than using actual jobs.

[Bethor]

- Plain Gla: Regular tank, regular / good soloer, low time investment
- GLaladin: Good tank, bad soloer, mid time investment, may be improved by leveling more classes
- Heavy cross skilled gla: Very good tank, good soloer, heavy time investment

That just made me jiggle xD

Blajurer oder Whamaturge?

Anyways... I've got mixed feelings about this as well. I don't want to be entirely forced to level all jobs. That's like lvling DRG even you don't want to =X

Of course there will be the "best" setups nonetheless. But why invent so many classes if you have to lvl them all to actually achive superman status? Then they could've just made 1 class which takes 2 years to level up.

I guess we have to wait and see how the new job system is going to be. GoGo Patch 1.20!

[Cairdeas]

Anyways... I've got mixed feelings about this as well. I don't want to be entirely forced to level all jobs. That's like lvling DRG even you don't want to =X

Not really, Its more like being a Warrior in FFXI and taking the time to cap all the weapons it can equip which is

Clubs
Knives
Swords
axes
Staffs
Great Swords
Great Axe
Marksman
Archery
Throwing
etc.

And yes, I did that. My Warrior has all her weapons capped at 75 (I haven't touched abyssea)

[Bethor]

Not really, Its more like being a Warrior in FFXI and taking the time to cap all the weapons it can equip which is

Clubs
Knives
Swords
axes
Staffs
Great Swords
Great Axe
Marksman
Archery
Throwing
etc.

And yes, I did that. My Warrior has all her weapons capped at 75 (I haven't touched abyssea)

And PARRY!!111oneone11!!eleven!!11

[KitCat]

Not really, Its more like being a Warrior in FFXI and taking the time to cap all the weapons it can equip which is

Clubs
Knives
Swords
axes
Staffs
Great Swords
Great Axe
Marksman
Archery
Throwing
etc.

And yes, I did that. My Warrior has all her weapons capped at 75 (I haven't touched abyssea)

I spent So much time skilling up every weapon my 3 main classes could use (drk, thf and whm) to max and getting all the weaponskills haha.

I can honestly say I had a ton of fun doing it too. I haven't touched abyssea either, and im ever tempted to play xi again because I had so much fun, but every time i go back I realize it'll never be the same again heh. Pretty depressing. Anyway, to the OP:

I agree and disagree, hah. I agree that someone who levels multiple jobs should have access to the abilities, and be stronger for it. I disagree with the notion of classes being made ineffective if you don't level all the jobs. This is a matter of balance for SE. The classes need to be made self-sufficient if needed. A glad should be able to tank reasonably well using only glad skills, or at most glad and 1 sub class. Every other class being just gravy on top of that.

I also agree that it should be more expensive to equip cross class skills. Like the person above who said cure 2 being 3 pts for conj and 5pts for glad.



All that being said i'd still drop this whole system for XI's job/sub system That's my own personal bias though lol

[AlexiaKidd]

Well, I personally think someone who did take the time to level multiple classes should indeed be far more effective than someone who leveled just one. That's absolutely fair, considering the nature of the Armoury System, and I personally don't see anything wrong with that.

Also, you DID bring up a good point about jobs. Indeed, depending on how it's done, there's the very real chance that a GLA with multiple classes leveled end up being a better thank than a Paladin GLA with limited skill access. However, once again, I don't see that as something inherently 'bad', for two reasons

1 - Jobs won't exactly prevent you from using skills from dif classes, will just limit which ones you can take. I'm assuming that, for example, a PLD will still be able to use most skills related to their role - IE: Tanking -, regardless of the class that learns the skill. So, they would still be able to use stuff such as MRD provokes, while losing access to things that aren't really currently used for tanking, such as elemental nukes.

2 - If a vanilla, multi-leveled GLA indeed works better than a Glaladin, it still seems fair enough considering the time invested on leveling the other classes, which could turn out into something like

- Plain Gla: Regular tank, regular / good soloer, low time investment
- GLaladin: Good tank, bad soloer, mid time investment, may be improved by leveling more classes
- Heavy cross skilled gla: Very good tank, good soloer, heavy time investment

Of course, this is all speculation. Also, I do believe that, regardless of how the job system is done, there will be strategies and situations where using a regular class will be 'better' than using actual jobs.

I see your point and it is valid and someone who does take the time to level should be rewarded in some way but I think this is too much. I mean when I invite a random GLA now is it going to get to the point where I start having to ask them or look them up on Lodestone just to make sure they have access to the skills needed to be an effective tank. In FFXI if I was to invite a PLD I knew what I was more or less getting with their Job/Sub Job in FFXIV you don't have a clue what they have access to.

For me levelling multiple Classes should just mean you should be able to switch to any Class and play it well, not be able to build a super tank just because you have done so.

[AdvancedWind]

I see your point and it is valid and someone who does take the time to level should be rewarded in some way but I think this is too much. I mean when I invite a random GLA now is it going to get to the point where I start having to ask them or look them up on Lodestone just to make sure they have access to the skills needed to be an effective tank. In FFXI if I was to invite a PLD I knew what I was more or less getting with their Job/Sub Job in FFXIV you don't have a clue what they have access to.

For me levelling multiple Classes should just mean you should be able to switch to any Class and play it well, not be able to build a super tank just because you have done so.

Well, leveling multiple classes and augmenting each other is the point of the armoury system since launch. Even the fatigue system (may it rest in peace...) was set up in a way to (in theory) encourage leveling multiple classes, and as you level those classes, each individual class can become stronger even when not exactly being leveled up.

It's a system that reminds me of some SRPGs (like Final Fantasy Tactics). in FFT, you could have a unit with just "Knight" leveled, and while it could do a reasonably good job (and I do think a plain Gladiator does a somewhat good job currently), it became exponentially better as you added stuff from other classes, say a Ninja's Dual Wielding, a Bard (os was it Dancer?)'s Move + 3, a mastered white mage sub command if you want a bit more of healing....you get the idea. It think it works pretty similarly here.

[Naqaj]

It's a system that reminds me of some SRPGs (like Final Fantasy Tactics). in FFT, you could have a unit with just "Knight" leveled, and while it could do a reasonably good job (and I do think a plain Gladiator does a somewhat good job currently), it became exponentially better as you added stuff from other classes, say a Ninja's Dual Wielding, a Bard (os was it Dancer?)'s Move + 3, a mastered white mage sub command if you want a bit more of healing....you get the idea. It think it works pretty similarly here.

Such a system of power inflation works well in a single player game, where you want to reach a point where your player feels really powerfull. In an MMO such a system leads to pretty massive balance problems.

Well, leveling multiple classes and augmenting each other is the point of the armoury system since launch. Even the fatigue system (may it rest in peace...) was set up in a way to (in theory) encourage leveling multiple classes, and as you level those classes, each individual class can become stronger even when not exactly being leveled up.

I'm not convinced the mix'n'match abillity puzzle was the real intention behind the Armoury system, at least not initially. If you remember the early "gameplay stories" on the XIV homepage, they were indeed showing people switching from one class to another, not building a best-of-all monster character.
They did mention cross-class abilities, but initially, the scope of that was much smaller, and they were supposed to have more severe penalties.
The idea was to allow players to customize their playstyle, not to create Superman characters.

[AdvancedWind]

Such a system of power inflation works well in a single player game, where you want to reach a point where your player feels really powerfull. In an MMO such a system leads to pretty massive balance problems.



I'm not convinced the mix'n'match abillity puzzle was the real intention behind the Armoury system, at least not initially. If you remember the early "gameplay stories" on the XIV homepage, they were indeed showing people switching from one class to another, not building a best-of-all monster character.
They did mention cross-class abilities, but initially, the scope of that was much smaller, and they were supposed to have more severe penalties.
The idea was to allow players to customize their playstyle, not to create Superman characters.

Point taken on a few things (and as for balancing issues, it can be solved based on the actual system, but still should - imo - reward those who invest more time).

In any case...the XIV homepage is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY outdated, even compared to release. =P.