Are cracks in the Armoury System beginning to surface?

[Tigercub]

Without reading 10 retarded pages... the point of this thread seems to be
"People who level everything shouldn't have more abilities than someone who has 1 class to 50?"
"There should be no advantage to leveling multiple classes"
"Uses abilities from other classes is an unfair advantage even if you've spent the time required to get those abilities"

I don't think that's at all what Alexia was trying to say
Personally I think that some classes rely far too heavily on several other classes for their combat effectiveness. Why should you have to spend literally three or four times as long playing classes you aren't necessarily interested in to get the most out of one class which you are interested in? It makes no sense whatsoever. Gear is a much smarter way to progress a class and pay people off for their time investment, because when you progress through gear you allow people the freedom to spend most of their time on the class that they want.

I would understand if it was similar to FFXI's subjobs where you only took abilities from one other job at a time and you only had to level subjobs to 37 (By the way, can you remember how much some people hated leveling subjobs? FFXIV is so much worse). But the fact is, to make a good Gladiator like the one described in Alexia's OP, you will be spending much more time on other classes to get there.

[Physic]

I believe this whole argument comes around now because of people wanting more defined roles per class.


Had they never called them classes, and never added more "defined roles for each class" and instead kept it how it was advertised.

Pick a Weapon
Learn Skills
Chose a Role
Do your best.

No one would be complaining, But for that to be possible it would mean building the game so that EVERY WEAPON CAN DO EVERY ROLE. Which more people would complain about.

Axes healing through dealing AOE damage and converting it to a healing boost.
Swords healing when deflecting blows
Pugilists healing with spiritual power
Archers healing with magical Darts fired with their arrows.
etc. on and on for each role on each weapon.


The system is a beautiful system, but a lot of the complaints are being made now because of complaints people made earlier. And SE's lack of foresight in how they should have pushed the Armoury system to the next level.

ok, i had to quote this because i half agree.

The truth is classes were not meant to be jobs, they werent meant to define your role, they were meant to be certain disciplines that offer you certain ways of doing something, to really excell at a specific role, you would take skills from as man disciplines as you have access to, that help your job do things.

This is also why the game uses a high dlevel equation, your level is still highly important in what happens. Its also why a lot of classes get high utility skills early, and the II series, is generally not that much better.

But now they are making classes more job like, so people expect them to perform the same way. As in 1 person of one job level is essentially the same as another person of the same job level. This system was meant to be like, you decide, i am an excellent tank, or excellent DD, or you are really good at debuff and DD, etc. I think the job system would have complimented the game better if it wasnt limited to one job. maybe not every job, but at least a couple, because job can tell you some ones role, The other thing is, there is a lack of content, so if they choose to make some high end, super skilled content, its going to seem like they are screwing starter peops, i guess thats why the lower dungeon is uncapped.

And yeah in all honesty, there was a pretty large difference between tanking potential in ffxi, based on gear and merits. You could see byakko eat 1 pld alive, and the other one would be fine, in this game gear isnt that hard to get, or get a comparable set, but skills, can be big.

It is a problem that to be a bad ass tank you need to level pug and mrd, but it would be less so, if you could be a pld/mrd pld/pug etc, then you are still doing the roll you love with slightly different tools, to get those tools, and play what you want in that role.

i think the biggest issue is telling what someone is, you have no idea if a 50 glad is a full fledged tank, or just a gladiator.



hmmm theortically, if they gave certain skills a value, like tank DD support etc, and then they gave you a rating based on your loadout, like a person with 20 tank skills would have a heavy tank rating, whereas a person with only 10 would be a medium tank rating, it might be easier to tell what people are, and easier for people to understand where they place in terms of fitting a specific role.

Of course in those terms, your actual leveling curve goes way higher...

in all honesty, they probably should have had a system where you get skill points for using skills from whatever class. This way you can gain skills while playing the job you want, although it might be slower, but if you really spend most your time curing, can you really say you shouldnt earn skills that help you cure?

Also they should probably, if they want to make class= roles, make it so that using the skills from that class, gives you almost all the tools you need to do whatever role.

its a complex issue really, i think they would be best off either merging class to roles completely, or, seperating them greatly. roles as jobs, and classes as a skill pool for the job, but the stats, traits and job skills puts you so completely on one path that your obviously whatever role that job is linked to. or just make classes and roles and jobs basically the same things

but honestly part of the issue, they dont really know what anything besides con arc and glad are supposed to be.

[Physic]

I don't think that's at all what Alexia was trying to say
Personally I think that some classes rely far too heavily on several other classes for their combat effectiveness. Why should you have to spend literally three or four times as long playing classes you aren't necessarily interested in to get the most out of one class which you are interested in? It makes no sense whatsoever. Gear is a much smarter way to progress a class and pay people off for their time investment, because when you progress through gear you allow people the freedom to spend most of their time on the class that they want.

I would understand if it was similar to FFXI's subjobs where you only took abilities from one other job at a time and you only had to level subjobs to 37 (By the way, can you remember how much some people hated leveling subjobs? FFXIV is so much worse). But the fact is, to make a good Gladiator like the one described in Alexia's OP, you will be spending much more time on other classes to get there.

see, gld shouldnt have been the definitive tank, then it would be like I like tanking, i need these skills to tank, in fact if they started of with say jobs, then had classes as disciplines under that job, people would have understood the system a lot better.

Then people would say get a PLD job and equip swords and shield for those skills, equip knuckles for the evasion and taunt skills, and mrd for the aoe tanking and enmity skills.

Its how it was meant to be, but by putting class rank in the forfront, and not telling people directly that they are only using them for skills, it lead to lots of problems.

[Amsai]

First off, the OP is absolutely right. When this game was in development and they said they'd be using this new "classless class" system, I got worried. All I could think of was that it would eventually turn into everyone being required to have every class, and after a couple of years we have a bunch of All-In-One Super Classes running around. Well it turns out that I was some what right. I wouldnt say a person with all battle classes to 50 is an All-In-One Super Class, but they sure are way too over-powered. And look I have had to adopt abilities from every class just so I can effectively tank the new Dungeon.....yea I did it, but I didnt like it one damn bit. I want to feel PRIDE in my class, but I cant beause my native skills are so weak I have to borrow from lolPUG..... WTF is that about? If I wanted to be any other class I would have damn well ranked that one up instead of GLA.

I'm not convinced the mix'n'match abillity puzzle was the real intention behind the Armoury system, at least not initially. If you remember the early "gameplay stories" on the XIV homepage, they were indeed showing people switching from one class to another, not building a best-of-all monster character.
They did mention cross-class abilities, but initially, the scope of that was much smaller, and they were supposed to have more severe penalties.
The idea was to allow players to customize their playstyle, not to create Superman characters.

EXACTLY!

Absolutely! But more power isn't the only possible reward. More flexibility works just as well, and creates less problems with balancing out large power gaps.

THIS.

No that is where I believe the Armoury System is wrong. If someone takes the time to get their chosen Class to R50 they should then not feel they have to level every other Job just to be a great Tank if thats what they want to do.

Someone who takes the time to level everything to R50 has a reward in that they can play any Class in any situation, that is their reward, it should not allow them to create some hybrid super Class that is completely over powered.

THIS..... again!!!

I think it's interesting that so many people say there should be a reward for getting all classes to 50. As far as I'm aware, there already is one - diversity. You get to pick and choose and adapt your group to the fight. A group with many classes leveled is already considerably more dynamic than a group with very few and therefore are already more powerful in one sense.

I don't think that on top of that you should also put others who can't invest the same kind of time to shame on one equal leveled class. Not everyone has the kind of time to make their character awesome, but we should at least be able to level one class to cap and feel somewhat competitive on that one class, just as you could in XI. The armory system turns that idea on its arse. You don't have to even be at level cap to realize that the higher rank skills on other classes will give you a massive advantage.

I also just think it's pretty silly that the strength of your class would depend far more heavily on your rank in other classes you may not even want to play. How does that make sense? In order to play GLA well you should spend three times as long on other classes to get their skills. It's basically like the subjob system turned inside out and the subjob is now your main.

Well said, and you are right, it is silly.

As I had stated that is the entire point of the Armoury system. Mixing and matching class abilities to make an "optimal" build for a specific role. If you want to be the best possible tank you have to not only grab the gear but sink time into getting the cross-class abilities.

Wrong. That was not the point at all. The point might have been to build your own role. However, I very greatly doubt it was to make optimal builds or that it ever should be. The point was to be able to be more versatile and rank up all classes on one character. So if you mix in a few extra abilities you become more versatile. If you mix in too many you become a jack of all trades and a master of none, NOT a master of all trades. And in fact while being more versatile, should be WEAKER LOL.

Classes

Actions will undergo major revisions, along with both the underlying mechanics and conditions.

By major revisions, not only do we mean the tweaking of effects and potency of existing actions - we will work from the ground up to redesign and reassign actions based on clearly identified class roles.
We will also make a number of changes as part of our reexamination of how actions are equipped and the character requirements for doing so. First, actions learned by each class will be set to the action bar by default when playing as that class. Also, we will be making some actions settable on any class, while other "class-defining" actions obtained at higher ranks will be usable only by that class.

We are already starting to see the begining of this with them herding Con to be more white magey, and THM to be more black magey. And more class only abilities. I predict they will finally come to their senses and put some kind of reasonable restraints on cross-classing as well as (dare I say it O.O) redistribution of abilities: GLA more tankey(accomplice etc etc. now native to GLA). I have no problem with the cross-classing of abilities in general, but there is no reason why for instance THE tank class should have to hunt down his/her abilities. If I am a new player and I know basically what type of role i want to fill, I should be able to pick a class for that role. Then if I want to be more versatile, I can augment my role with cross-class abilities.

As for Classes vs. Jobs? They have already given us an idea about what it will be like.

Normal GLA = Good tank (solo/casual/light party content)
Uber Cross Classed GLA = Good Tank, but more versatile (Low-Man/Light Party Content) ex: Totorak
Paladin GLA = Best Tank, but little or no versatility (Full Party Content) ex: Darkhold

This is not to say that there will be no middle ground. I am sure there will also be situations where it might be good to have a mix of both classes and jobs.

Imagine this scenario: Full Party Dungeon, and an Insanely powerfull boss along with 2 mini-bosses that are very powerful as well. So you get a Paladin on the big boy with healer support, and a couple of very versatile Gladiators to tank each mini-boss. GLAs heal themselves and possibly other party members, and DDs/Nukers take out the mini-bosses one at a time. Then the GLAs switch to a more DD role and everyone takes out the Mega-Boss.

[Val_Rhys]

@ Amsai: I could not agree with you more.

[kukurumei]

First off, the OP is absolutely right. When this game was in development and they said they'd be using this new "classless class" system, I got worried. All I could think of was that it would eventually turn into everyone being required to have every class, and after a couple of years we have a bunch of All-In-One Super Classes running around. Well it turns out that I was some what right. I wouldnt say a person with all battle classes to 50 is an All-In-One Super Class, but they sure are way too over-powered. And look I have had to adopt abilities from every class just so I can effectively tank the new Dungeon.....yea I did it, but I didnt like it one damn bit. I want to feel PRIDE in my class, but I cant beause my native skills are so weak I have to borrow from lolPUG..... WTF is that about? If I wanted to be any other class I would have damn well ranked that one up instead of GLA.



EXACTLY!



THIS.



THIS..... again!!!



Well said, and you are right, it is silly.



Wrong. That was not the point at all. The point might have been to build your own role. However, I very greatly doubt it was to make optimal builds or that it ever should be. The point was to be able to be more versatile and rank up all classes on one character. So if you mix in a few extra abilities you become more versatile. If you mix in too many you become a jack of all trades and a master of none, NOT a master of all trades. And in fact while being more versatile, should be WEAKER LOL.




We are already starting to see the begining of this with them herding Con to be more white magey, and THM to be more black magey. And more class only abilities. I predict they will finally come to their senses and put some kind of reasonable restraints on cross-classing as well as (dare I say it O.O) redistribution of abilities: GLA more tankey(accomplice etc etc. now native to GLA). I have no problem with the cross-classing of abilities in general, but there is no reason why for instance THE tank class should have to hunt down his/her abilities. If I am a new player and I know basically what type of role i want to fill, I should be able to pick a class for that role. Then if I want to be more versatile, I can augment my role with cross-class abilities.

As for Classes vs. Jobs? They have already given us an idea about what it will be like.

Normal GLA = Good tank (solo/casual/light party content)
Uber Cross Classed GLA = Good Tank, but more versatile (Low-Man/Light Party Content) ex: Totorak
Paladin GLA = Best Tank, but little or no versatility (Full Party Content) ex: Darkhold

This is not to say that there will be no middle ground. I am sure there will also be situations where it might be good to have a mix of both classes and jobs.

Imagine this scenario: Full Party Dungeon, and an Insanely powerfull boss along with 2 mini-bosses that are very powerful as well. So you get a Paladin on the big boy with healer support, and a couple of very versatile Gladiators to tank each mini-boss. GLAs heal themselves and possibly other party members, and DDs/Nukers take out the mini-bosses one at a time. Then the GLAs switch to a more DD role and everyone takes out the Mega-Boss.

Not exactly. The armoury system suffered both from a conception standpoint and a execution standpoint. Both parts have a role to play in the mess. A double whammy for developers who couldn't see beyond the armoury concept.

One for making it harder to get right, and the 2nd part for failing to even make it viable. So both have to be argued kind of separately in that respect.

On thing that FF11 got right, and FF14 got wrong, was how it handle it. Not only because FF11 did class/subclass but also, you can only set it in town.

FF14 didn't learn from its big brother and reason out why that was a restriction very tightly bound(they were very reluctant to even use nomad moogles). The whole, change class, so skills, so armor less restriction, on the fly thing made the armoury system from a monster to a 8 headed-fire-breathing monster.

Not only couldn't developer predict which combination and what not was OPed, and Super OPed, but now that players could change it anywhere, anyway, was even more problematic. And then attaching Weapon skills to it making it a massive combination of balance problems.

I suspected when people starting point out faults developers go "Woopsie...didn't realize I had to balance 10000 different skill combinations, thought they were balanced already" thus epic failure that they didn't even try to touch so they could make a new system easier on themselves.

Not only does FF14 need a system that plays nice for it's players, but also that let's developers easily manage it in the long run. Armoury was neither of those.

[Davorok]

I am going to quote myself from an older similar thread (pre 1.18 patch)

Anyone who wants the Armory System to remain as it is has already lost this argument. They are changing it. Despite being unique and interesting in a sandbox mode kinda way, it was a dismal failure. It seems most people want more defined Class Roles and I think that is what we are getting.

I hope we still can cross-abilities (some anyway, I can't survive without Sacrifice 2)) but I always thought using an Axe Weapon Skill with a Bow is extremely silly.

Think about it...if a Pug is loaded up on Axe Weapon Skills and Abilities, it comes to a point where you're not a Pugilist anymore but rather a Marauder using Hand-to-Hand weapons.

Why bother having Class Names at all then? We are all just "Adventurers" using weapons and skills all willy-nilly so from now on I want to be called a "GladiMar PugLanConTurge".....or maybe just "Weapon Master"...but I really just want to be an Archer.

And another quote...from me (pre 1.18 patch)

I am not a big fan of the Armoury System. I think it is a convoluted mess that strips away the "Role" in Role-Playing-Game. All SE really did with this system is to allow people to play as a WAR/WHM, MNK/RDM, DRG/BLM or any other abomination of traditional (read effective) Party-Based Play without being ostracized, humiliated and bullied into changing their subjob.

Since our skill sets are private, we can play as any lame setup we desire and since battles are so chaotic and over so quickly, no one notices how badly someone is leaching and not really contributing. Now, I am no Elitist and I really don't care what or how anyone plays as this game is VERY solo-friendly so experiment all you want and create a Frankenstien Monster Hybrid if you wish but there will always be peer pressure (elitism) when it comes to Party-Based Content and it is specifically for Party-Based-Content that the new "Jobs" are being created for.

No Party will want a Lancer/Paladin (unless no Glads are available).
No Party will want a Pugilist/Paladin (unless no Glads are available).
No Party will want a Conjurer/Dragoon. (period)

Yes, elitism sux but that's just the way it is and always will be cuz PT's always want the most efficient party setups, whether it be for EXP, NM's or Raids. Do and be whatever you want for solo-play but everyone eventually has to conform to the standards of what is "best" for PTing.

I could be wrong (I often am) and I am just speculating (along with everyone else) but I think the new "Jobs" are specifically designed to enhance Dungeon/Raid fights where specific monsters are fought and specific goals are met. In other words a "Paladin" would be very beneficial against a Dungeon Boss (perhaps required) but useless against random mobs in the open world (no real benefit so not even available).

A "Thief" specialty would be very useful for getting that rare drop in a dungeon (Treasure Hunter) but useless in open world (TH does not affect "normal drops").

Maybe they will make the "Jobs" available to any Class at any time but it seems rather pointless to me and would just make an already muddled game even worse.

Sandboxes are for children. Games are for teens. Jobs are for adults.

and yet one more awesome quote...from me (my own response to my previous quote):

My post probably came across as an Anti-Solo rant which it is not. I actually solo most of the time (as an Archer) because I can and I enjoy it. I like that peeps can solo effectively as (almost) any Class-Combo they desire. I have no problem with that and encourage it.

I am simply trying to point out that as more Party-Based Content becomes available and especially because Yoshi has stated that this content will be challenging and will reward "Strategy and Effort" that we will most likely end up with "elitism" in PT setups, Gear Setups and Ability Setups. And I also have no problem with this either.

Just because I can do whatever I want while Soloing, does not mean I can do whatever I want in a Party. I fully expect to be "bullied, scoffed and shamed" into adhering to what a party desires if I am going to join them for a tough fight. That's just the way it is.

In it's current state (which we all seem to agree sux) FFXIV is just a "Zerg-Fest" like WoW, and others. It doesn't matter what your job/class/skills are (except you almost always need a tank & healer). The majority (vocal majority anyway) wanted more well defined classes/jobs to defeat well designed monsters/dungeons that require strategy over DD (zergs).

This appears to be what we are getting with the new Job System, Dungeon Raids and possibly Company Quests as well. The current Class System will remain relatively intact for Solo-play (sandbox mode) but the higher tier Dungeons will likely devolve into Specific Party Setups and Class/Job Skills, especially due to the 60 min. time constraint. People want to Win, not laugh about Epic Fails due to someone who refuses to "conform" to what works.

I am mostly thinking of random PT's though. I am sure LS mates will have a blast trying to win with "Frankenstein Monster Abominations" And I am ok with that too.

Sorry for the self indulgence but I still stand by my earlier posts.

[Physic]

ehhh problem is without armory, this game will be even less entertaining. The other thing is, some of these skills shouldnt be on glad, or else glad will have 0 versatility at all, the same with marauder and pug. Accomplise is a needed skill for pug because half of our attack skills are based around getting hate. Defender is needed for Marauder because mrd is supposed to be getting hit by like 3 monsters at once, and be able to survive it. The fact that a gld jacking these skills is a better tank is logical, but taking them out of the jobs they are native to are not. Sooo all they could really do is nerf them or limit them to the main class, but lets be honest that will make your glads a lot weaker.

I think the thing is, its not so much that glad is op vs other jobs with these skills, (after all, if a mrd was tanking he would borrow gld skills) but rather that it would take someone a long time to get the skills. There are a number of solutions to this, but its too late for a lot of them without big changes.

[Mudd]

I only read about half of your post to be honest, but hasn't this been pretty obvious since the beginning that there would be a difference in the ability of a player who played only one class as opposed to one who played multiple, when it came to doing certain things? Hell, that was part of the excuse for Fatigue if I'm not mistaken; to make us diversify ourselves by leveling multiple classes.

I don't consider it a problem, while I do understand. If you can put in the hours, I don't see why you shouldn't be aloud to be more efficient. You can't think of it as PENALIZING the players who can't put in the hours though...
If you put it that way it just sounds so unfair, but that's not what it is at all. It's completely fair. They aren't forcefully taking anything away from anyone.
If you can't put in 100 hours, and can only put in 5, you need to come to accept that while still capable you might not be THE BEST, and just make do with what you have. I mean, who comes into an MMO, knowing what an MMO is, expecting to be the best on the server when they can barely play?

Nobody.

Anyways, I say just wait for Jobs to be implemented and see what happens.
Ive been away for a while so I barely remember the details regarding them but if I remember correctly it might serve as a form of balance.

[MrKupo]

I may not be in too much authority to say anything here (considering my ranks) but conceptually I disagree. There were some very good points about classes only being effective with the use of other classes, but as the OP said, if you are skilled enough, you can handle the solo class. What the Armoury system does, on the other hand, is open up a crap load of customization to fit each players individual play style.

What I mean by this is, for example, if a Gladiator player wanted to be able to cast cure on himself and maybe periodically cast stoneskin on himself, he wouldn't need to level Conjurer up to 50 to do so. All you need is a few levels before you get those spells. What I think more casual players will do is ultimately look up their favorite combinations of skills among all the classes and level up to get those at the very minimum. I have no plans to level up Conjurer past 16, because all I want are the buffs.