Repetitive grind parties should NOT be the main source of leveling

[Dargoth_Draconia]

This is a topic I'd really like us to hash out on the forums to get a good idea on where we as a community want the leveling system of this game to go. So let's get down to this discussion and have a good, heated debate where we can fight for what mode of leveling we feel should be implemented in the game (my bias should be clear at this point based on the title ).

My Opinion:
Since the beginning of my MMO trek I've never understood the appeal of repetitive, endless grinding where a group fights the same monsters over and over and over again until they reach the level cap (usually throwing away hours a day). What good does this do the player? Yes, you get really good at killing common monsters about 1000+ times, but how is this content or an acceptable way to explore through a game? Maybe this GETS you to content but the means do not justify the ends. It only promotes reproducing a dim and dull task countless amount of times to reach an end goal. To me this only proves one's ability to have patience and resilience in the face of menial labor (like pulling the same lever at a conveyor belt for your job at a factory every day).

When we play an MMO we want to explore content, immerse ourselves in the story, and feel a sense of community to our fellow players. Grinding can bring us together, but it really becomes something you have to MAKE fun after a while and it becomes mindless and less engaging for a group. People say "oh well you just aren't being creative, we used to play games like 'pull the hate off the tank' or fight really tough mobs' to see if we wipe". These examples should be things we can do REGARDLESS of grind parties and a game shouldn't have its sole basis of leveling made fun by imaginary games invented by the players. There should be some structure.

Mixes of dungeons, group quests with fun objectives, leve parties, and grinding can be great in an MMO but grinding parties alone as the only feasible way to level up fast will only bring back ex-FF11 players who logged around 7 years into the game and no new crowds that can bring this game a healthy population .

To be honest I'm embarassed when I tell people about games like FF11 and FF14 because when I get done talking about all their cool content I cringe when I have to bring the brutal truth of their endless xp grinds that some say make them seem like "work".

I don't understand the appeal to grinding as a main source of leveling, but I'm sure you guys have plenty to say so feel free to bash me down or agree with me. Whatever floats your boat.

Now I want to know what you guys think

*edit
a lot of you seem to think I want solo play to be the best, and most profitable way to level, but I don't. I do believe group methods of leveling up should yield the highest amount of growth =).

Currently there are tons of ways to level up but your die hard MMO fans who love the level up process feel like grinding in camps (like new beastmen camps or even the instances or even roaming parties) goes hand in hand with that process. I understand you don't get it but really the grind parties are about community play, gathering a group of players some friends some not and just going out and killing monsters and having fun. That in itself makes 100% sense to me and to me a Japanese MMO or Korean MMO wouldn't be the same if that wasn't the main source of EXPing. Since everyone refers to WoW I will too in this situation, WoW's main source of leveling up was through quests or running dungeons/instances. (second option mainly applies to tanks and healers) and I am glad FFXIV has finally added some SP gains to all the quests that makes me actually want to do them. I had no desire before to do the quests really for the rewards you get because money is practically useless for the time being.

Part of the immersion for me is the grind for I don't play MMOs for a great storyline because most MMOs lack what I consider a good storyline. FFXIV has the makings for a good storyline but because you get to watch a beautiful cutscene but still have to read text instead of getting voice acting has really killed it for me. I find myself skipping most the CS's and/ or just spamming the button to get through the wall of text you have to read. FFXI CoP expansion had an amazing storyline but the rest of the storylines in FFXI to me was mediocre at best.

Honestly what you are complaining about is only one of the options and is not the only way to level up atm. You can solo grind mobs, party grind, do leves (still great SP from the leves I have done solo and fair SP in a party with full links and personally glad Leves is not the main focus for the grinding that is so boring) and the dungeons provide great SP for SP runs if you get a group that will utilize it for such, IF you just want to grind the mobs fight up the to boss back out reenter in 5 min and start over, the SP gain is great in Dz Darkhold for 45+ if you kill all the mobs. I am sure Toto rak or w/e is good sp for the 25+ as well. For the time being we only have 2 dungeons but we will be getting more dungeons with each new patch and before long we will have a lower level and a higher level dungeon in each area more than likely. Then again killing mobs is the only way to level no matter in what context you do it it, whether it is in a group in a dungeon or doing a level you are still technically grinding on mobs to get SP just in a slightly different form or different objectives tossed in the mix.

[Dargoth_Draconia]

P.S. Content just started to come out give the game some time I am sure they are going to add more than just dungeons with the new outposts being added to the game and the beastmen tribes etc. You should feel happy with the new content that we have gotten that goes to show you they are competent enough to deliver. We will probably see some stuff like Garrison defense and other things in the future.

[Betelgeuzah]

In the hopes that the reps are listening, here's my general analysis on open world grinding vs everything else.

A) The monsters aren't semi-phased/instanced as in the guildleve system.

The result: groups fighting for the right to camp on a specific spot, overcrowding issues and constant tweaking of monster placement.

B) The lack of bite-sized goals to work for unlike with the guildleve system.

The only goal you achieve is the level up-fanfare you hear after perhaps hours of monster slaughter. No 'kill ten monsters to receive a bit of extra SP and some money'. Instead 'kill hundred and fiftysix monsters for 0.74% of progression per kill for two hours'.

C) The bane of repeatable content: repetitiveness

Beyond different camps and monsters on different level ranges, there is no cure for repetition. The monsters aren't particularly tough; the gameplay isn't particularly challenging or even entertaining. There is no added randomness to make the activity more unpredictable and, as such, more interesting. I wonder if the name 'Nyzul Isle' rings a bell to anyone (reps)? For some reason, that event stayed fresh for quite a bit longer than the others. Master Matsui knows what I'm saying.

D) Good luck trying to predict and balance the monsters to be 'equal' in the eyes of the players

The developers don't know which mob we choose to grind on. There is no guildleve system to regulate what we kill and where. All they can do is guess, tweak, all the while we just pick the next best thing until the next patch.

Or they could just introduce colibris and ladybugs.

These are the four main reasons why I'm not particularly fond of the current direction. They are giving away too much for the sake of decentralizing the game, and I hope they would at the very least take the good sides of leves and make them universal.

Because fighting for camps and mobs (and not just any mobs- crabs and crawlers of the month's flavor) is so much fun

[Dargoth_Draconia]

In the hopes that the reps are listening, here's my general analysis on open world grinding vs everything else.

A) The monsters aren't semi-phased/instanced as in the guildleve system.

The result: groups fighting for the right to camp on a specific spot, overcrowding issues and constant tweaking of monster placement.

B) The lack of bite-sized goals to work for unlike with the guildleve system.

The only goal you achieve is the level up-fanfare you hear after perhaps hours of monster slaughter. No 'kill ten monsters to receive a bit of extra SP and some money'. Instead 'kill hundred and fiftysix monsters for 0.74% of progression per kill for two hours'.

C) The bane of repeatable content: repetitiveness

Beyond different camps and monsters on different level ranges, there is no cure for repetition. The monsters aren't particularly tough; the gameplay isn't particularly challenging or even entertaining. There is no added randomness to make the activity more unpredictable and, as such, more interesting. I wonder if the name 'Nyzul Isle' rings a bell to anyone (reps)? For some reason, that event stayed fresh for quite a bit longer than the others. Master Matsui knows what I'm saying.

D) Good luck trying to predict and balance the monsters to be 'equal' in the eyes of the players

The developers don't know which mob we choose to grind on. There is no guildleve system to regulate what we kill and where. All they can do is guess, tweak, all the while we just pick the next best thing until the next patch.

Or they could just introduce colibris and ladybugs.

These are the four main reasons why I'm not particularly fond of the current direction. They are giving away too much for the sake of decentralizing the game, and I hope they would at the very least take the good sides of leves and make them universal.

Because fighting for camps and mobs (and not just any mobs- crabs and crawlers of the month's flavor) is so much fun

Personally I don't see how you can say you don't like the direction, instead of forcing us to be able to level up only two ways they give us more options and there should be no complain whatsoever now. We will be getting more content and with the way the game is currently I seriously don't see how anyone could complain on ways to level up. You can do camp grinds, roaming grinds, Leve grinds, dungeon grinds and now quests give fair SP for something to do on the side.
Bane of repetitive content, problem is an MMORPG is nothing but repetitive content that the sole purpose of an MMO, do the same crap over and over and over til you mastered it and got all the gear you could get from it and then they bring you a new something to do an rinse & repeat. I have yet to play an MMORPG where the content isn't repetitive to some extent or another. Also for fighting for grind spots, you don't have to and I can say this because people only choose to go to spots they have heard about and don't try anything new. Back when everyone was around level 20 at the beginning I took a group to somewhere they thought wouldn't be good SP, yet it turned out to be two times better gain than the best crab party. There is 5 zones that are massive in this game at the moment and 3 of which has content/areas for people to level up on from R1-50, then Coerthas from what R20 or 30+ mobs and Mor Dhona 40+ can grind here and in these different zones there are underground caves or lower levels where there are monsters for people to kill yet you never see people utilizing these places. So don't blame SE for having to fight for camps and blame yourselves for not trying new stuff out.

[Betelgeuzah]

Personally I don't see how you can say you don't like the direction, instead of forcing us to be able to level up only two ways they give us more options and there should be no complain whatsoever now.

And some of these options have inferior aspects to them as opposed to leves. If you want to give me more options, make sure that they're at the very least equal to what I was doing before.

[KitCat]

If they could make combat and partying as fun as it was in FFXI i'd be fine with "repetitive grind parties". (Because repeating the same stupid guildleves over and over isn't just repetitively grinding mobs, with a bunch of inefficient walking in between)

If they can make quest rewards actually worth the time spent running around that would be another good way to get some SP. Right now you can grind 10 mobs and get just as much SP as spending thrice that amount of time running around in circles for some npcs.

Haven't done the dungeons yet, maybe on the weekend. Sounds like people are getting some good SP there. Though it's really just another grind party with the prospect of gear and some bosses to fight.

Anyhow.. If I could have half as much fun in this game as I had doing some insane 9+ hour grinding parties in FFXI I could die happy. 1.18 is stepping in the right direction as far as I'm concerned. Some more tweaking/revisions, new content/zones/enemies, all the missing stuff like chocobos, airships, housing of sorts, and some epic missions like that of FFXI's CoP and I'll be happy.

Right now, and no offence meant to DoL players, the missions are shallow and only half interesting. There are no epic battles like the ultima/omega fight in ffxi, or ouryu, diabolos, or the last cop battle.

Anyhow got off topic there sortof. We should have the option of choosing several ways to level, even though in reality they're all just XP grinds disguised as other things :P. I had loads of fun making friends and trying different things in grind parties. Evasion/blink tanking as thief while the ninja did all the pulling was always fun hah.

Anyway, it is what you make it.

[Fensfield]

If I have to grind, I'd prefer it be field monsters rather than some sort of quest. I know you lot are going to beat me with the Gameplay > Immersion stick, for this, but grinding is grinding, and while grinding in the field lets me imagine a few variations, repeating the same quest and the same bit of lore over and over and over just kicks immersion in the teeth.

What's needed is dynamic or emergent content of some form, and right now, the closest thing to that is the simple random factor generated by having other players in your party whilst running about the fields killing monsters. Leves are okay, however - the whole guild counter / camp / etc system sort of blurs the line. But .. well, I just came back from trying Aion. Being stuck in this infinite quest chain was just.. urgh, so much for your own adventure. I got bored knowing that whatever happened, it was totally scripted.

Long, rambly rant over.

TL:dR? - Don't make following quest chains the only way to level up; having my character's actions, nature, and path taken out of my hands, and being forced to accept that by it being the only way to get anywhere, is even more painful than just running about grinding random monsters.

[zaviermhigo]

I prefer grinding mobs, it makes it feel like those mobs are there for a reason. In XI it wasn't "get six people and kill any mob" we killed "incredibly toughs", and it was based on there characteristics. In this game every mob has a a ranged, and a lot have awful tp moves. Open world grinding still requires more mob diversification in my opinion. I would rather play a game where we grinded on mobs in the open world, then have those mobs just be there for quest "oh kill 10 puks here", so we only kill those puks for a quests? Why are the mobs even there. guildleves were retarded and open world grinding is what the majority of people want so too bad.

[Murugan]

I wish I could just burn this thread to the ground. I've never seen Ul'dah or the community more active than since 1.18 with groups forming for XP parties at all level ranges.

While the patch wasn't perfect, it was by far the best thing to happen to this game to date. Some people complain about anything, but the revitalization of XP parties were a wonderful and necessary addition to the game.

Other MMO's should take notes, this is how you foster a good community in your game.

[zaviermhigo]

I wish I could just burn this thread to the ground. I've never seen Ul'dah or the community more active than since 1.18 with groups forming for XP parties at all level ranges.

While the patch wasn't perfect, it was by far the best thing to happen to this game to date. Some people complain about anything, but the revitalization of XP parties were a wonderful and necessary addition to the game.

Other MMO's should take notes, this is how you foster a good community in your game.

Exactly. But you know Selbina is a unique server, we're all unique servers, but on Selbina the game is alive, Gridania and LL were alive for a whole two days after the patch. I bet with 1.19 if companies offer enough content it could liven up the other two cities again. Loss of guildleve sp has lead to more shout groups to grind at multiple party levels, not just the common grass raptor grind. Totally agree with you Murugan