SE's most difinitive statement yet on parsers

[Krr]

I'm starting to think there is multiple definitions of Parsers within the community. Would you be more specific which ones you are talking about? When I think of Parsers, I'm thinking of a program that goes through the log files, parses them, and then gives you the results.

While I don't believe parsers are the devil that gameplay purists want you to believe they are, it should be noted that parsers for FFXIV access read-only clientside data that is invisible to the user in order to produce more accurate numbers, due to the difficulty in using raw text logs to calculate things like damage from DOT abilities is in this game. For a long time, SMN was actually considered 'underpowered' or at least in a mystery area damage-wise due to this limitation.

YMMV on whether this is appropriate or ethical behavior, but we have been told that a modding API would allow players to access clientside data like this.

[Kaethra]

While I don't believe parsers are the devil that gameplay purists want you to believe they are, it should be noted that parsers for FFXIV access read-only clientside data that is invisible to the user in order to produce more accurate numbers, due to the difficulty in using raw text logs to calculate things like damage from DOT abilities is in this game. For a long time, SMN was actually considered 'underpowered' or at least in a mystery area damage-wise due to this limitation.

YMMV on whether this is appropriate or ethical behavior, but we have been told that a modding API would allow players to access clientside data like this.

That does go into a bit of a gray area or even pandora's box. I'd have to see exactly how these parsers access the information, and how they display it. To be perfectly honest, I haven't delved into downloading parsers for FFXIV yet since ACT hasn't made a plugin yet. ACT is the parser typically used for Everquest 2.

I can see where using log files would be difficult to get accurate results. For many years the parsers for EQ1 and EQ2 haven't been able to tell you how much damage 'others' have been doing due to range limiting what goes into the log. I assume the same thing happens here. But to the general subject on hand....

What I don't understand is the disdain towards parsers in general by some of the posters here. As I have said, I've seen parsers or damage meters used in every other MMO I've played and never seen this issue pop up. You have players claiming there is issues with abuse. I've never seen that. Then you have others saying it gives PC players advantages over Playstation players. What about Teamspeak? If I jump into a Wolves Den match with my friends on TS and the other team is all PS players.. they have no chance in winning. Is TS bannable?

I think mountains out of molehills are being made here.

[Ryel]

That does go into a bit of a gray area or even pandora's box. I'd have to see exactly how these parsers access the information, and how they display it. To be perfectly honest, I haven't delved into downloading parsers for FFXIV yet since ACT hasn't made a plugin yet. ACT is the parser typically used for Everquest 2.

I can see where using log files would be difficult to get accurate results. For many years the parsers for EQ1 and EQ2 haven't been able to tell you how much damage 'others' have been doing due to range limiting what goes into the log. I assume the same thing happens here. But to the general subject on hand....

What I don't understand is the disdain towards parsers in general by some of the posters here. As I have said, I've seen parsers or damage meters used in every other MMO I've played and never seen this issue pop up. You have players claiming there is issues with abuse. I've never seen that. Then you have others saying it gives PC players advantages over Playstation players. What about Teamspeak? If I jump into a Wolves Den match with my friends on TS and the other team is all PS players.. they have no chance in winning. Is TS bannable?

I think mountains out of molehills are being made here.

Once again while i don't support nor discourage the usage of parsers and I'm not one of the people attempting to demonize their usage nor the players who use them, this isn't exactly a grey area.

As far as SE's ToS is concerned and while the term "parser" is stated, it's pretty clear they mean ANY third party program that reads or has access to any of the game files in any manner, regardless if any change is made to game data whatsoever.

In fact this was originally brought up in response to data mining ages ago even though the act of data mining doesn't change or alter game data in any way it's still against the ToS.

It makes no difference as far as the ToS is concerned as to what other MMOs are doing, the fact is simple that using a parser is considered a reportable and bannable offense now.

programs like TS, Vent, and Mumble while they do offer a significant advantage when it concerns player communication, are completely stand alone programs that do not read or interpret game data and therefore are not relevant comparisons to this conversation. They are referring directly to 3rd party programs that access FFXIV data files and not whether or not you have minesweeper running in the background.

If it is against the ToS they are flat out saying it is a bannable offense if it is reported. There is no grey area or any hidden meaning to this; no weighing of benefits, no relevance or examples of what other MMOs do, no wiggle room or grey area that can be argued with a GM should they decide to take action against your account.

If you wish to use a parser and get reported for it, depending on the circumstances it is entirely possible your account will be suspended or banned. It is up to you as a player to determine whether or not you are willing to take that risk.

This is the stance SE has taken, whether it is the correct one is completely irrelevant.

Also i do agree that people get way up and arms about their usage but unfortunately that isn't the point here either

[Gormogon]

I've never seen that.

Do you simply turn a blind eye to it?

Regardless of people using parsers or not it's obvious when damage is lower than it should be.

Parsers is a tool that can be used to inform players and the majority use of it is to weed out the bad by pointing out that their numbers in damage, healing, damage taken from certain abilities isn't where the "cookie cutter" numbers states that you should be in. That's the biggest offense with the tool and it's what is mainly used for. No matter how many times people want to put a positive spin on it that just ain't the case since those players don't aim for a avg threshold to go, yeah that will do good enough everything else is up to execution. It's used to see max consist value to try and get as best results possible with the least amount of tries.

As for teamspeak. Lan parties used to be a thing in the past and still are in some games in some areas. With or without a 3rd party program like TS, Ventrilo, etc people can easily communicate in and outside the game in this day and age. Even if such thing was not allowed taking the type to macro with text commands and noises for fights isn't that difficult just time consuming. Especially with getting people to get used to certain sounds.

[Appleh4x]

Do you simply turn a blind eye to it?

Regardless of people using parsers or not it's obvious when damage is lower than it should be.

Parsers is a tool that can be used to inform players and the majority use of it is to weed out the bad by pointing out that their numbers in damage, healing, damage taken from certain abilities isn't where the "cookie cutter" numbers states that you should be in. That's the biggest offense with the tool and it's what is mainly used for. No matter how many times people want to put a positive spin on it that just ain't the case since those players don't aim for a avg threshold to go, yeah that will do good enough everything else is up to execution. It's used to see max consist value to try and get as best results possible with the least amount of tries.

As for teamspeak. Lan parties used to be a thing in the past and still are in some games in some areas. With or without a 3rd party program like TS, Ventrilo, etc people can easily communicate in and outside the game in this day and age. Even if such thing was not allowed taking the type to macro with text commands and noises for fights isn't that difficult just time consuming. Especially with getting people to get used to certain sounds.

You are EXTREMELY misinformed. Most people using parsers know that it's not something you talk about in game, so you don't even have a clue how many people actually do have them. The people talking about them in game are the minority. Most people use parsers for self improvement to find optimal rotations/test new gear/ give a personal indicator of how you fare in terms of DPS compared to others so you know if you're fine or need to improve. As someone mentioned earlier using a parser is the same as a sprinter timing their runs, if you consider that cheating you are insane. Harassment is harassment, regardless of third party programs and it has nothing to do with parsers,

[Reynhart]

You are labeling all mods, including quality of life mods, as the same.
I can't take you seriously at this point.

Cheaters label all mods, including blatant breaking ones, as quality of life.

[Kaethra]

Once again while i don't support nor discourage the usage of parsers and I'm not one of the people attempting to demonize their usage nor the players who use them, this isn't exactly a grey area.

As far as SE's ToS is concerned and while the term "parser" is stated, it's pretty clear they mean ANY third party program that reads or has access to any of the game files in any manner, regardless if any change is made to game data whatsoever.

Again, we have to agree on which files we are talking about here. The log files are NOT in the same location as the game files. One is in the Program Files folder, the other is in the Documents folders. The game doesn't use the log files for anything. It dumps them in there just like it does with screenshots.

In fact this was originally brought up in response to data mining ages ago even though the act of data mining doesn't change or alter game data in any way it's still against the ToS.

Again, the parsers I have used in the past in previous games have no data mining capability. Data mining being described as intercepting packets. Most other MMOs disallow this as well (database websites usually get a license to do this like ZAM or WoWHead).

It makes no difference as far as the ToS is concerned as to what other MMOs are doing, the fact is simple that using a parser is considered a reportable and bannable offense now.

I've read the TOS just before I wrote this, and there is no mention of it specifically.

programs like TS, Vent, and Mumble while they do offer a significant advantage when it concerns player communication, are completely stand alone programs that do not read or interpret game data and therefore are not relevant comparisons to this conversation. They are referring directly to 3rd party programs that access FFXIV data files and not whether or not you have minesweeper running in the background.

If it is against the ToS they are flat out saying it is a bannable offense if it is reported. There is no grey area or any hidden meaning to this; no weighing of benefits, no relevance or examples of what other MMOs do, no wiggle room or grey area that can be argued with a GM should they decide to take action against your account.

And this is where things are going to get fuzzy. IFF (not a typo, if and only if) it turns out they wish to crack down on parsers. How do they enforce it? Anyone who gets reported for it is now in trouble? No, that won't happen. They'll have to use some sort of metric to detect it. Of course detecting changes done to the contents of the \\Documents\My Games\FINAL FANTASY XIV - A Realm Reborn\ folder is going to result in many many false postitives. Especially since the log files share the same location as the screenshots.

And to go further on that. If they want to restrict that, do they restrict screenshots too? I mean log files and screenshots both share the following characteristics: They are both in the same folder. They are both output by the game. Neither are used by the game executable during play.

Also Parsers like the ones I have been describing are completely stand alone programs that do not need the game to be running (or even installed as the logs remain after uninstall) to function. In fact I don't even think the game can delete or alter those files itself without elevated priveledges in Windows.

Do you simply turn a blind eye to it?

Regardless of people using parsers or not it's obvious when damage is lower than it should be.

Parsers is a tool that can be used to inform players and the majority use of it is to weed out the bad by pointing out that their numbers in damage, healing, damage taken from certain abilities isn't where the "cookie cutter" numbers states that you should be in. That's the biggest offense with the tool and it's what is mainly used for. No matter how many times people want to put a positive spin on it that just ain't the case since those players don't aim for a avg threshold to go, yeah that will do good enough everything else is up to execution. It's used to see max consist value to try and get as best results possible with the least amount of tries.

I don't see the issue here. Whether I look at the log and count up the damage and divide by the time, or let a program or spreadsheet do it for me, whats the difference? Just like in your example with TS being the same as using a cellphone, or other means of comms.

Again I'm talking about non-overlayed, non-datamining means of parsing. Aka, using the logs. I don't advocate messing with actual installed files (in harddrive or RAM) or data in IP packets.

[ispano]

Cheaters label all mods, including blatant breaking ones, as quality of life.

So let me ask you something. If you wanted to know how much damage you did in a certain time frame. You could take the in game log, which gets cut off at a certain point, so you might miss something. But with timestamps, you might be able to add it all up and figure it out, ignoring the fact that dots aren't listed in the log for this game. You could also go look up the actual log files that ARR saves, but anyone who has ever tried to read those manually will tell you it's a pain, if you look at one you'll see why.

Now, what about using a parser? It would read all that data for you, and compile it into something easy to read. Would also be quicker.

So, let me ask the last question(s). Would you consider that cheating? When all it does is compile large quantities of data far more efficiently than a person could on their own? Or would you say that fits under Quality of Life? And if you think it's cheating, why?

[Gormogon]

You are EXTREMELY misinformed.

You keep telling yourself that. Keep justifying parsers by saying you know people that use them.

It doesn't matter to me because pre-parsers to current parser usage behavior is obvious.

[Mcshiggs]

As someone mentioned earlier using a parser is the same as a sprinter timing their runs, if you consider that cheating you are insane. Harassment is harassment, regardless of third party programs and it has nothing to do with parsers,

If the organization that is hosting the races has a no stopwatch policy, then yes timing the sprints is cheating. In XIV they want everyone to feel like heroes, them giving you access to a tool that will let you point out to those "heroes" you are screwing up, and here is the proof isn't something they are going to do.