SE's most difinitive statement yet on parsers

[KaiKatzchen]

Although we will continue to monitor game data to ensure that similar illegitimate practices are not being used, we would like to remind players that using third-party programs, parsers, or other tools to conduct actions players would not normally be able to do in the game is a violation of the Terms of Service, and will be dealt with strict disciplinary action.

Players who discover any confirmed cheats should, under no circumstances, exploit or disseminate such information. Instead, we ask that players file a report by using the in-game command [System Menu] -> [Support Desk] -> [Contact Us] -> [Report Cheating].

Source: http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...513.1392924972

[ispano]

Although we will continue to monitor game data to ensure that similar illegitimate practices are not being used, we would like to remind players that using third-party programs, parsers, or other tools to conduct actions players would not normally be able to do in the game is a violation of the Terms of Service, and will be dealt with strict disciplinary action.

Players who discover any confirmed cheats should, under no circumstances, exploit or disseminate such information. Instead, we ask that players file a report by using the in-game command [System Menu] -> [Support Desk] -> [Contact Us] -> [Report Cheating].

Source: http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...513.1392924972

Fixed that for you. Their wording here is using any of these tools, and even they consider them tools, to do things you can't do normally. And a parser alone does not do that. Some current parsers out there however, have addons or plugins that do allow you to do things you shouldn't be able to do. But the parser itself does not do such things.

The last few pages have been, "lolwut" from the anti-parser/cheating accusers. Although it was already said here it is again.

Currently:
1) ToS forbids third-party programs
2) A third-party program has the ability to do parsing
3) Parsing is cheating

Add-on support
1) ToS forbids third-party programs
2) A third-party program has the ability to do parsing
2b) SE has a first-party program with the ability to do parsing
3) Parsing is cheating

See how that makes sense? Get it? Got it? Good.

Well, it won't actually be first party. It will still be made by a third party, but will be an addon instead of an external program. But yeah, will still allow parsing even though it's "cheating" according to these people. Really kind of funny.

Unfortunately dots do not get recorded in either the log or combat window

Actually they do show on screen. It's just all your dots lumped together where the problem lies, in addition to everyone's dots ticking at the same time, making it hard to see.

[Sebazy]

Actually they do show on screen. It's just all your dots lumped together where the problem lies, in addition to everyone's dots ticking at the same time, making it hard to see.

Aye, they only show as flying text, but the numbers never make it further than that, they don't appear in the log or combat window and thus aren't really parseable via traditional math alone. Disable flying text in the options and dots won't get seen by a parser for example.

Ps sorry for the double post, not sure how I managed that!

*edit* wait nm, space-time continuum getting torn asunder by historic quoting!

[ispano]

Aye, they only show as flying text, but the numbers never make it further than that, they don't appear in the log or combat window and thus aren't really parseable via traditional math alone. Disable flying text in the options and dots won't get seen by a parser for example.

Ps sorry for the double post, not sure how I managed that!

*edit* wait nm, space-time continuum getting torn asunder by historic quoting!

Well, since most current parsers just read that data from memory, unless the option turns that aspect off too, it likely still reads them. But yeah, to manually parse dots you have to watch the screen. Doable, but really not feasible. But we just have to wait for addons and we won't have to worry about these arguments anymore.

Um... you didn't fix anything I said.

I directly quoted that word for word from SE, which you can see by looking at the link. So if you did fix anything, you basically just changed the meaning of what SE is saying is their rules as a company. Not me.

I didn't change the wording at all, I highlighted the actual relevant part, which you chose not to.

[KaiKatzchen]

Fixed that for you. Their wording here is using any of these tools, and even they consider them tools, to do things you can't do normally. And a parser alone does not do that. Some current parsers out there however, have addons or plugins that do allow you to do things you shouldn't be able to do. But the parser itself does not do such things.

Um... you didn't fix anything I said.

I directly quoted that word for word from SE, which you can see by looking at the link. So if you did fix anything, you basically just changed the meaning of what SE is saying is their rules as a company. Not me.

[Mcshiggs]

Well, it won't actually be first party. It will still be made by a third party, but will be an addon instead of an external program. But yeah, will still allow parsing even though it's "cheating" according to these people. Really kind of funny.

If the add on is ok'd by SE, then it will no longer be cheating, it is only cheating now because it is a third party tool and all third party tools are against ToS, so by definition cheating. I would say it's really kind of funny this hasn't sunk in for you yet, but in fact it's really just kind of sad.

[ispano]

If the add on is ok'd by SE, then it will no longer be cheating, it is only cheating now because it is a third party tool and all third party tools are against ToS, so by definition cheating. I would say it's really kind of funny this hasn't sunk in for you yet, but in fact it's really just kind of sad.

No, what's sad is you coupling something with something it's not. Third Party Programs being disallowed in the ToS does not make the act of parsing, cheating. You can argue, like I said earlier, til you're blue in the face and it still will not be true. People do this all the time. They want to "simplify" and classify many things under one term so they don't have to think about it, and you may not be doing that, but that's what's happening.

When you can show me how a parser bypasses game rules, keyword GAME rules, since that's what a cheat does, I MIGHT listen to you. Cheats always make something easier. Not all things that make something easier, are cheats. So, please, blue yourself in the face.

Lastly, assuming the addon is ok'd by SE, parsers we have now will still not be allowed, NOT because they are parsers or that parsers are cheating. Since they never were. They would be not allowed due to being third party programs.

Please realize the disconnect you're having, because I'm done trying to teach you.

If they ever allow an addon or implement an in game parser it will no longer be cheating because even though it would provide an advantage, it would no long be breaking a rule to do it.

No, i'll do one more. No, they would still be against the ToS. Only the one built for the addon API would be allowed. Parsing with something like XIVAPP or others like it, would still be classified under Third Party Programs and Disallowed. Again, nothing to do with the fact that it is a parser. But the fact it's a third party program. Everything you've posted even clearly STATES that, and you ignore it and try to use it for your own argument.

Read that one sentence you quoted from me very carefully, let all the words sink in, I said if they allow an add on or put one in game, it would no longer violate ToS, you are the one ignoring what people post. Not sure why you are bringing up the app, I never mentioned it there, I said the ones they ok would not violate ToS. You are either just so angry you can't prove your point you are ignoring what folks post and even imply stuff we never mention, or there is some disconnect between what you read and what you comprehend and retain.

And that's my post limit for the day, feels kind of wasted so many on this one subject because some folks can't read facts put before them, comprehend them, and accept that no matter how much they argue it has been clearly laid out by the devs.

Why am I bringing up the app, because THAT is what's against the rules. Not the act of parsing. That's what YOU don't comprehend. You try to bundle it all together like they're both the same, when they're not. Your words about the mod and it become non-cheating even proves it. Being against the ToS is only because it's a third party program. NOTHING else. You just choose to think so.

Read the bolded part from the lodestone, tools that parse data are against ToS, are you not seeing that? If you are so certain that you can parse and it's all ok, I will gladly make a character on your server, I will go to a target dummy and you can parse me and whisper me the results, I'll report it to a GM and we will see if the simple act of paring is ok or not.

Do we need to get an English Major in here? Because you're reading the meaning of that line incorrectly.

[Mcshiggs]

arguing with myself

There is a link on the first page, not sure if you didn't read it, didn't click, or just refuse to believe it because it makes parsing cheating.

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...620.1397906412
We would also like to remind players that third-party tools that modify or parse game data violate the User Agreement, and that players who are found to be using these tools will be met with strict disciplinary action.

The act of parsing isn't cheating, the use a third party tool makes it cheating. Straight from the lodestone, any tools that modify or parse game data violate the User Agreement.
Now incase you didn't read the post I made earlier that gave the definition of cheating,

Definition of cheat: to break a rule or law usually to gain an advantage at something

So there you have it, when you use a third party tool, you are breaking the User Agreement, a list of rules you agree to when you play this game.
The reason people parse is that it provides a benefit or advantage. By definition since using a third party tool to parse breaks a rule and you gain an advantage it is cheating. If they ever allow an addon or implement an in game parser it will no longer be cheating because even though it would provide an advantage, it would no long be breaking a rule to do it.
I have laid this out pretty much as simply as I can, and if anyone can't see it, then wow.

No, i'll do one more. No, they would still be against the ToS. Only the one built for the addon API would be allowed. Parsing with something like XIVAPP or others like it, would still be classified under Third Party Programs and Disallowed. Again, nothing to do with the fact that it is a parser. But the fact it's a third party program. Everything you've posted even clearly STATES that, and you ignore it and try to use it for your own argument.

Read that one sentence you quoted from me very carefully, let all the words sink in, I said if they allow an add on or put one in game, it would no longer violate ToS, you are the one ignoring what people post. Not sure why you are bringing up the app, I never mentioned it there, I said the ones they ok would not violate ToS. You are either just so angry you can't prove your point you are ignoring what folks post and even imply stuff we never mention, or there is some disconnect between what you read and what you comprehend and retain. As for what you say about what I post states that it is against the rules because it is a third party program is exactly what I am attempting to get across. As long as it is against the User Agreement it is breaking the rules. If you don't want to call it cheating ok, most cheaters don't like being told they are cheating, that's on the folks breaking the rules not me, but by definition the fact that using a third party tool to parse is technically cheating right now. If they change it in the future, by adding addons or what ever, that is the future, currently it's no ok'd. If you would read that lodestone post they do single out programs that parse data specifically.

Why am I bringing up the app, because THAT is what's against the rules. Not the act of parsing. That's what YOU don't comprehend. You try to bundle it all together like they're both the same, when they're not. Your words about the mod and it become non-cheating even proves it. Being against the ToS is only because it's a third party program. NOTHING else. You just choose to think so.

Read the bolded part from the lodestone, tools that parse data are against ToS, are you not seeing that? If you are so certain that you can parse and it's all ok, I will gladly make a character on your server, I will go to a target dummy and you can parse me and whisper me the results, I'll report it to a GM and we will see if the simple act of paring is ok or not.

And that's my post limit for the day, feels kind of wasted so many on this one subject because some folks can't read facts put before them, comprehend them, and accept that no matter how much they argue it has been clearly laid out by the devs.

[Exstal]

third-party tools that modify or parse game data

The rest of your post was irrelevant.

Parsing can be done by hand.
Parsing is *not* cheating.

There really isn't any counter argument to this.

The only argument you have is that, "using third party tools is cheating". That would be correct. There is no refutation of that. But since you're saying "parsing is cheating", you're dead wrong and it's rather impressive that you've either brilliantly ignored it or simply chose not to understand this simple fact.

[Mcshiggs]

The only argument you have is that, "using third party tools is cheating". That would be correct. There is no refutation of that. But since you're saying "parsing is cheating", you're dead wrong and it's rather impressive that you've either brilliantly ignored it or simply chose not to understand this simple fact.

Since everything I have posted has been about the use of third party programs, and that fact is what makes them cheating you can use context clues that I was never talking about pen and paper parsing. This entire thread was about SE stating that using parsers was against the User Agreement, again nothing about pen and paper parsing, the only reason pen and paper parsing was brought up was someone said that parsers were ok because they didn't allow you to do something you couldn't do already, but the link in the original post says specifically parsers are a violation. I'm not sure if I ever said outright "parsing is cheating," like you claim I have, I know you might be able to cherry pick something out of a post, but they are all about third party tools, I have said many many times that the fact that third party tools is what makes them cheating, so if you are using those to parse, then yes you are cheating. If you want to say it's not cheating by definition because they don't provide an advantage you couldn't come to yourself, then why use them, because you gain the advantage of time saved and not having to do the work yourself, still an advantage, so still cheating if you use the programs to do it.