SE's most difinitive statement yet on parsers

[ispano]

Addons unless made by SE are still third party tools, like I said, once they are no longer against ToS to use, using one won't be cheating, but as long as they are against ToS, by definition using one is cheating. I really don't see how you can't see this, the definition of the word cheat has been put before you, you agree that they are against ToS, you agree that using one provides an advantage over not using one. So you agree that it meets what it takes to be cheating, but still refuse to admit that it is cheating at this moment.

No, I agree that Third Party Programs are against the ToS. That's what you are refusing to acknowledge. If it was against the rules solely for being a parser, it might be a different story, might. But like I said, when addons get implemented, and we have functioning in game DPS meters/parsers, BUT third party programs are still dis-allowed, such as the many that exist now, what then? Because that would be a huge contradiction to your argument.

Who knows, later down the line SE could toss in a radar add-on or anything else, by your theory since there is a possibility that it could happen in the future, and the only way to use it now is with a third party app, then it isn't cheating to use one now, even though SE is actioning accounts that they prove to be using them now.

Missing the point entirely. The act of parsing is not cheating. Using a third party program is for sure against the ToS. The only reason Parsers are ONLY third party programs now, is because we don't have an addon system in place yet.

[Mcshiggs]

No, I agree that Third Party Programs are against the ToS. That's what you are refusing to acknowledge. If it was against the rules solely for being a parser, it might be a different story, might. But like I said, when addons get implemented, and we have functioning in game DPS meters/parsers, BUT third party programs are still dis-allowed, such as the many that exist now, what then? Because that would be a huge contradiction to your argument.

I understand that it isn't that fact that it is a parser that is cheating, it is how you have to use it that makes it cheating, but that can go for anything that could be a potential add-on, but for now, and until they change ToS, because of the way you have to use it, it is considered cheating. You can't break the rules now, because you assume they will change in the future, especially when you are dealing with SE, originally add-ons were supposed to be available at launch, it was pushed back. SE has a horrible track record of saying they will do something and then actually coming through in a timely manner, so until they do, using a parser is cheating, if by nothing else because of the way you have to go about using it, but in the end, cheating is still cheating.

[ispano]

I understand that it isn't that fact that it is a parser that is cheating, it is how you have to use it that makes it cheating, but that can go for anything that could be a potential add-on, but for now, and until they change ToS, because of the way you have to use it, it is considered cheating. You can't break the rules now, because you assume they will change in the future, especially when you are dealing with SE, originally add-ons were supposed to be available at launch, it was pushed back. SE has a horrible track record of saying they will do something and then actually coming through in a timely manner, so until they do, using a parser is cheating, if by nothing else because of the way you have to go about using it, but in the end, cheating is still cheating.

But see, that's the thing. They won't need to change the current line in the ToS, and they likely won't either, when addons come. And they've already indicated addons will have access to damage and healing information, and other things the client has access to. So we will be allowed to use the ones made for the addon API, but not external, because guess what? Those are still third party programs.

So, you two can talk until you're red in the face, it's not cheating. If they truly did not want parsers, there would be no possible way we could get them as addons, yet they've pretty much already indicated it will be possible.

So, as I said in my previous post. Being against the rules simply due to being a parser and being against the rules for being a third party program, are nowhere near the same thing. And to disallow an external program because it's a parser, yet allow it as an addon would be a contradiction. It's simply because it's a third party program, nothing more.

You are basically arguing with yourself now, you admit that it is a third party program, you admit using third party programs is against the rules, you don't dispute the definition of cheating and you agree using one gives you an advantage, the simple fact that it is a third party program is what makes it cheating, nothing more, you said it yourself, your only argument is that they might allow them in the future, you seem to fail to realize that future isn't here yet, and until it is, using any third party program, even parsers is cheating. Not sure if it is a need to argue or a need to always be right, but it is clear right in front of you, you agree to everything that makes it cheating, your pride or something just isn't letting you make that connection.

Fun, Post Limit.

No, it bothers me when people lump something in with something it's not. A Botting Program. A Teleportation Hack. A Parser. All 3 are third party programs. Only two are actual cheats. Even SE knows the difference, but to avoid endorsing or allowing the first two, they don't ban parsers. They ban third party programs. So, no, until the future is here, they are not cheating. They are simply not allowed by the ToS,third party programs that is. And when that future is here, and we have player made parsing mods, but the third party programs are still disallowed, is where your argument breaks. Just the fact that it's a possibility to allow one and not the other, clearly indicates the difference.

And since you want to use the definiton of cheat so much, Parsing in itself alone, since players can do it by hand if they really wanted, is not against the Terms of Service. Third Party Programs are.

Parsing is an action. Third Party Programs are just that, Programs.

[Mcshiggs]

It's simply because it's a third party program, nothing more.

You are basically arguing with yourself now, you admit that it is a third party program, you admit using third party programs is against the rules, you don't dispute the definition of cheating and you agree using one gives you an advantage, the simple fact that it is a third party program is what makes it cheating, nothing more, you said it yourself, your only argument is that they might allow them in the future, you seem to fail to realize that future isn't here yet, and until it is, using any third party program, even parsers is cheating. Not sure if it is a need to argue or a need to always be right, but it is clear right in front of you, you agree to everything that makes it cheating, your pride or something just isn't letting you make that connection.

[Gormogon]

You are basically arguing with yourself now

That's basically all they can do. They can't admit the real reason why they desire it. Instead they prefer to be in this vicious repetitive cycle where they claim nothing can be done in-game without its existence, in which the claim itself is baffling.

If they would simply admit to needing this 3rd party tool for the sake of it just being a quality of life thing then they would have less trouble getting their point across to the dev team and in turn be taken more seriously.

Yet they prefer that vicious cycle because they try and rationalize the justification of belitting players that you can see all thread long. That alone already defeats the purpose since it shows how the pro parser side is easily swayed into bad/shaddy behavior that SE is trying to prevent and/or keep at a minimum.

[Krr]

That's basically all they can do.

Given that this thread is now an echo chamber for the irrational who can't handle being shown counter-evidence and instead want to engage in reactionary drivel, yeah, it's pretty pointless for anyone forward-thinking or capable of grasping material realities beyond their insane, made-up scenarios to post in it.

With that point in mind, I guess I've made a good argument for myself to go to bed, and keep an eye out for the player names of several people who've taken frighteningly abusive and manipulative mindsets toward other players in response to criticism of their play in case they transfer to my server or show up in my DF. I will play with seven parser-abusing outlaws willing to tell me how well I'm doing over seven blind fools who rage on a forum and hurl baseless moral insults over the crime that someone once called their DPS low.

If a player genuinely abuses you using one of these programs, you have the ability as granted by the TOS to call forth an investigation of their behaviors. Nobody here is taking that away from you, and many people advocate fight club rules to prevent this type of abuse from being common.

I have done nothing but educate players on the rules surrounding, official statements given, and real effects and technology used for parsers in this game to do their job, and even corrected several misconceptions about how they work and why you may not consider them ethical with the "pro parser" crowd. Others, however, have resorted to simply repeating ToS diatribes written by legal robots and the phrase "cheating".

[Assirra]

That's basically all they can do. They can't admit the real reason why they desire it. Instead they prefer to be in this vicious repetitive cycle where they claim nothing can be done in-game without its existence, in which the claim itself is baffling.

If they would simply admit to needing this 3rd party tool for the sake of it just being a quality of life thing then they would have less trouble getting their point across to the dev team and in turn be taken more seriously.

Yet they prefer that vicious cycle because they try and rationalize the justification of belitting players that you can see all thread long. That alone already defeats the purpose since it shows how the pro parser side is easily swayed into bad/shaddy behavior that SE is trying to prevent and/or keep at a minimum.

Seriously, am i seeing a different thread from most of you anti-information people? Where do you see this belittling in this thead? It's actually backwards. People give valid arguments and all we get back are stupid comparisons and "lalalala your cheating lalala".

[Elven]

Seriously, am i seeing a different thread from most of you anti-information people? Where do you see this belittling in this thead? It's actually backwards. People give valid arguments and all we get back are stupid comparisons and "lalalala your cheating lalala".

All we get is please please listen to us we think you're too stupid to understand that parsers are a good thing and greatly help us train. Oh please parsers were just an innocent third-party application caught in the big bad war against those other applications that are clearly cheating. But wait we have more valid reasons because you're all too ignorant to see past the fact it's against Tos.

Did I leave anything out? Oh wait lets say by nature parsers are not cheating, but technically they are because of the Tos. See what I did there, live with it.

[Ghishlain]

That's basically all they can do. They can't admit the real reason why they desire it. Instead they prefer to be in this vicious repetitive cycle where they claim nothing can be done in-game without its existence, in which the claim itself is baffling.

If they would simply admit to needing this 3rd party tool for the sake of it just being a quality of life thing then they would have less trouble getting their point across to the dev team and in turn be taken more seriously.

Yet they prefer that vicious cycle because they try and rationalize the justification of belitting players that you can see all thread long. That alone already defeats the purpose since it shows how the pro parser side is easily swayed into bad/shaddy behavior that SE is trying to prevent and/or keep at a minimum.

Let's get a few things straight:

Fact: Parsers are against the ToS as they are a third party tool and Square-Enix condemns all third party tools associated.

Although we will continue to monitor game data to ensure that similar illegitimate practices are not being used, we would like to remind players that using third-party programs, parsers, or other tools to conduct actions players would not normally be able to do in the game is a violation of the Terms of Service, and will be dealt with strict disciplinary action.

-Source

Fact: Parsers allow players who use them to optimize their output by outputting data to the user that allows them to analyze their post battle contribution and determine what methodology they can change to help maximize every ounce of power their class and gear can contribute to a fight. This can be used on general targets like training dummies just to see what maximum output someone could do a target where mechanics can be ignored and then compare that to more mechanically heavy fights and see how much efficiency they lose due to the nature of a fight.

Fiction: All players who use parsers are elitest jerks and use it to prove their epeen is stronger than others. This attitude is very deplorable and should be repeated immediately. While I can see the use of parsers for positive usage, I do not condone this attitude and any elitest jerk who uses a paser in this fashion should be kicked / suspended / warned / banned / etc..

However, this isn't to say that all players who using parsing software use it to flaunt their epeen. Only select few individuals use it in this manner.

---

I've more or less played XIV since launch. My own experience is I've only had an elitest jerk prove their "epeen" once in the 11 months I've been playing this game (though I have seen parse data pasted into chat several times, only once has it been used to prove "I'm better then you all"). Can you argue I've been lucky? Perhaps. I do jump into DR / DFs a lot though and for the most part, my experiences have been mostly positive and gives me confidence in the community as a whole.

I'm not sure what has happened in your past that has caused to you feel that the endgame community is out to get you. You have proven with your narrow-minded white-knight-for-the-sub-average attitude in this thread and another on this OF with posts like this, this, and this.

In some respects, you can argue that your narrow-mindedness in the whole thing is why you butt heads with people because you cannot see past the fact that "someone might be playing bad, I NEED TO DEFEND THEM" instead of providing constructive criticism. Parsers only emphasizes that further because it's just, in your own opinion, another tool for elitest jerks to use to prove they are better and thus you must be adamantly against the elitest jerks. The stonewalling on your end only emphasizes how stubborn and narrow-minded you are in these discussions.

[Gormogon]

Let's get a few things straight:

How about you get the thing that matters straight.

Play the game.