SE's most difinitive statement yet on parsers

[LadyVal]

snip

cheat [cheet]
verb (used with object)
1. to defraud; swindle: He cheated her out of her inheritance.
2. to deceive; influence by fraud: He cheated us into believing him a hero.
3. to elude; deprive of something expected: He cheated the law by suicide.
verb (used without object)
4. to practice fraud or deceit: She cheats without regrets.
5. to violate rules or regulations: He cheats at cards.
6. to take an examination or test in a dishonest way, as by improper access to answers.

Really, technically it is a cheat. The rules say it is disallowed, you use it anyways, it's a cheat by definition of the word. Regardless of why said rule was implemented.

I personally don't care if people parse, since I'm not that heavily invested in endgame and raw numbers. I just wish SE would find a way to make parsing accessible and soon just to stop the massive fights on the subject. This thread is like the perfect example of chaotic/lawful alignments from DnD. lol

[ispano]

Addons unless made by SE are still third party tools, like I said, once they are no longer against ToS to use, using one won't be cheating, but as long as they are against ToS, by definition using one is cheating. I really don't see how you can't see this, the definition of the word cheat has been put before you, you agree that they are against ToS, you agree that using one provides an advantage over not using one. So you agree that it meets what it takes to be cheating, but still refuse to admit that it is cheating at this moment.

No, I agree that Third Party Programs are against the ToS. That's what you are refusing to acknowledge. If it was against the rules solely for being a parser, it might be a different story, might. But like I said, when addons get implemented, and we have functioning in game DPS meters/parsers, BUT third party programs are still dis-allowed, such as the many that exist now, what then? Because that would be a huge contradiction to your argument.

Who knows, later down the line SE could toss in a radar add-on or anything else, by your theory since there is a possibility that it could happen in the future, and the only way to use it now is with a third party app, then it isn't cheating to use one now, even though SE is actioning accounts that they prove to be using them now.

Missing the point entirely. The act of parsing is not cheating. Using a third party program is for sure against the ToS. The only reason Parsers are ONLY third party programs now, is because we don't have an addon system in place yet.

[Elven]

You can care about the rules all you want, since this has nothing to do with them. Calling a parser a cheat, against the rules or not, is just simply wrong.

If you're too ignorant to see that anything currently not allowed in the Tos that gives someone using them an advantage over someone that isn't. You might as well sanction teleport hacks and bots.

[ispano]

If you're too ignorant to see that anything currently not allowed in the Tos that gives someone using them an advantage over someone that isn't. You might as well sanction teleport hacks and bots.

Read the post above yours. There's a world of difference between not allowing something because it's a parser and not allowing it because it's a third party program, REGARDLESS of what the program actually does. In this case, it's the latter, disallowing all third party programs. Has absolutely nothing to do with it being a parser, only that it's a third party program.

[Mcshiggs]

No, I agree that Third Party Programs are against the ToS. That's what you are refusing to acknowledge. If it was against the rules solely for being a parser, it might be a different story, might. But like I said, when addons get implemented, and we have functioning in game DPS meters/parsers, BUT third party programs are still dis-allowed, such as the many that exist now, what then? Because that would be a huge contradiction to your argument.

I understand that it isn't that fact that it is a parser that is cheating, it is how you have to use it that makes it cheating, but that can go for anything that could be a potential add-on, but for now, and until they change ToS, because of the way you have to use it, it is considered cheating. You can't break the rules now, because you assume they will change in the future, especially when you are dealing with SE, originally add-ons were supposed to be available at launch, it was pushed back. SE has a horrible track record of saying they will do something and then actually coming through in a timely manner, so until they do, using a parser is cheating, if by nothing else because of the way you have to go about using it, but in the end, cheating is still cheating.

[ispano]

I understand that it isn't that fact that it is a parser that is cheating, it is how you have to use it that makes it cheating, but that can go for anything that could be a potential add-on, but for now, and until they change ToS, because of the way you have to use it, it is considered cheating. You can't break the rules now, because you assume they will change in the future, especially when you are dealing with SE, originally add-ons were supposed to be available at launch, it was pushed back. SE has a horrible track record of saying they will do something and then actually coming through in a timely manner, so until they do, using a parser is cheating, if by nothing else because of the way you have to go about using it, but in the end, cheating is still cheating.

But see, that's the thing. They won't need to change the current line in the ToS, and they likely won't either, when addons come. And they've already indicated addons will have access to damage and healing information, and other things the client has access to. So we will be allowed to use the ones made for the addon API, but not external, because guess what? Those are still third party programs.

So, you two can talk until you're red in the face, it's not cheating. If they truly did not want parsers, there would be no possible way we could get them as addons, yet they've pretty much already indicated it will be possible.

So, as I said in my previous post. Being against the rules simply due to being a parser and being against the rules for being a third party program, are nowhere near the same thing. And to disallow an external program because it's a parser, yet allow it as an addon would be a contradiction. It's simply because it's a third party program, nothing more.

You are basically arguing with yourself now, you admit that it is a third party program, you admit using third party programs is against the rules, you don't dispute the definition of cheating and you agree using one gives you an advantage, the simple fact that it is a third party program is what makes it cheating, nothing more, you said it yourself, your only argument is that they might allow them in the future, you seem to fail to realize that future isn't here yet, and until it is, using any third party program, even parsers is cheating. Not sure if it is a need to argue or a need to always be right, but it is clear right in front of you, you agree to everything that makes it cheating, your pride or something just isn't letting you make that connection.

Fun, Post Limit.

No, it bothers me when people lump something in with something it's not. A Botting Program. A Teleportation Hack. A Parser. All 3 are third party programs. Only two are actual cheats. Even SE knows the difference, but to avoid endorsing or allowing the first two, they don't ban parsers. They ban third party programs. So, no, until the future is here, they are not cheating. They are simply not allowed by the ToS,third party programs that is. And when that future is here, and we have player made parsing mods, but the third party programs are still disallowed, is where your argument breaks. Just the fact that it's a possibility to allow one and not the other, clearly indicates the difference.

And since you want to use the definiton of cheat so much, Parsing in itself alone, since players can do it by hand if they really wanted, is not against the Terms of Service. Third Party Programs are.

Parsing is an action. Third Party Programs are just that, Programs.

[chocomaid]

If you're too ignorant to see that anything currently not allowed in the Tos that gives someone using them an advantage over someone that isn't. You might as well sanction teleport hacks and bots.

Can we drop the "giving someone an advantage over someone that doesn't" notion? SE is already sinking that ship with the retainers. Be wary of what you ask for as well, SE might actually comply, it might not be teleport hacks but SE can toss another optional advantage like paid free teleports.

[Elven]

Read the post above yours. There's a world of difference between not allowing something because it's a parser and not allowing it because it's a third party program, REGARDLESS of what the program actually does. In this case, it's the latter, disallowing all third party programs. Has absolutely nothing to do with it being a parser, only that it's a third party program.

Should any world first achiever's come out and say they used parsers to pass the content first or would that kind of thing be frowned upon by the greater community? As long as it's against the Tos it's not allowed regardless if you view it as not cheating.

[Mcshiggs]

It's simply because it's a third party program, nothing more.

You are basically arguing with yourself now, you admit that it is a third party program, you admit using third party programs is against the rules, you don't dispute the definition of cheating and you agree using one gives you an advantage, the simple fact that it is a third party program is what makes it cheating, nothing more, you said it yourself, your only argument is that they might allow them in the future, you seem to fail to realize that future isn't here yet, and until it is, using any third party program, even parsers is cheating. Not sure if it is a need to argue or a need to always be right, but it is clear right in front of you, you agree to everything that makes it cheating, your pride or something just isn't letting you make that connection.

[Exstal]

They are not mutually exclusive.