SE's most difinitive statement yet on parsers

[saeedaisspecial]

As biased as "FFXIV requires parsing". I had all my relics before 2.1. I cleared Turn 4 before 2.2, and all those without any parsing tools. And I've seen very good players with average stuff, that would clearly lost a pure DPS but managed to dodge every mechanic of Titan.

Again, I've done endgame content in 2.0 and 2.1, specifically avoiding "post your DPS"-people or "one mistake and we'll kick you"-people. I've trained several members in my FC so that they manage to win content while still enjoying the game. My opinion is based on this way of playing the game, that didn't prevent me to clear early endgame. And like someone said, parse-required-mentality started even before 2.0

Actually, I'm aware that parsing can be interesting. When my FC leader did an intervew at Japan Expo in France, I even gave him a suggestion about implementing a parser on training dolls which he asked Yoshida. I thought that by doing this, people can work a min-max build when choosing stuff without the fear of being harassed in dungeons.

Honestly I'm satisfied with this reply (except the coil/relic thing that goers back to content at their prime vs content near the end of its life argument, but I'm not going to nitpick there). Although I would add one thing.
A parser on training dummies only would be useless, as at end game even though you know your rotation, you may be doing less damage on encounter X or Y, you need to be able to analyse why.

[Gormogon]

Since Yoshi has a clear view of parsing tools and how they are used to harass people (sometimes), I don't see him changing the user agreement to make it legal.

It's also not even needed. I don't see why players are so dependent on it. There's already a ton of resources on how to "git gud" with your job/role, such as visiting the classes & jobs roles section.

It's not like there's any diverse form of playing your role outside of trying to aim for a certain type of "stat" build with acquired gear. Even then acc cap will always house the most importance.

A parser on training dummies only would be useless, as at end game even though you know your rotation, you may be doing less damage on encounter X or Y, you need to be able to analyse why.

My sides, pls seriously stop.

[Reynhart]

Honestly I'm satisfied with this reply. Although I would add one thing.
A parser on training dummies only would be useless, as at end game even though you know your rotation, you may be doing less damage on encounter X or Y, you need to be able to analyse why.

The main goal is to see which stat gives you the greater boost. Should I focus on Deter, or Critical ? Maybe Skill speed can change something too.
On harder content, numbers will be lower, but the ratio will probably be the same.

[saeedaisspecial]

git gud
My sides, pls seriously stop.

At this point it's clear you're just a troll who should head back to /v/.

The main goal is to see which stat gives you the greater boost. Should I focus on Deter, or Critical ? Maybe Skill speed can change something too.
On harder content, numbers will be lower, but the ratio will probably be the same.

While true, there are occasions where you need to stop and take a look at a singular fight to figure out why you're not making DPS checks.
Two players of the same job may be doing the same rotation, but one may be producing significantly higher numbers than another, taking an in depth look at a parse could yield some insight into this.

[ispano]

At this point it's clear you're just a troll who should head back to /v/.

Oh he's been trolling these forums for a while. I even tested him on a similar subject and he failed miserably, of course he would never admit to it.

[Mcshiggs]

While true, there are occasions where you need to stop and take a look at a singular fight to figure out why you're not making DPS checks.
Two players of the same job may be doing the same rotation, but one may be producing significantly higher numbers than another, taking an in depth look at a parse could yield some insight into this.

So you don't just want a simple parser that tells dps, you want something like world of logs where you can see stuff like buff and debuff up time and all that. I'm one of those that right now, they say parsers are against the rules, so I think using them is wrong, right now. I see the use from them, and if they ok them in the future so be it, but they are just a tool, they are by no means required. While it was nifty to look at, world of logs was just ridiculous in the amount of information it gave and it was ridiculous when raid groups started making you link your Logs page to them so they could evaluate you before they decided if you were worthy of grouping with them. And that is the kind of stuff SE is trying to avoid. They would rather a group give you a shot, and kick you if you don't measure up, rather than dismissing you based on numbers before hand.

Also dps isn't always as clear as folks think, if I roll into a raid as a monk, and see there is a better geared monk there, I will make sure he knows that I will handle the dragon kick buff, so he can maximize his dps. To some people if they see the dps numbers afterward, I suck because his numbers are so much better than mine, but if you think about it, some of his dps is because of me, every other rotation, he gets a free crit bootshine because of me. If you have people that know about this kind of stuff, they can handle the parsers ok, but I doubt the majority of the people would do that if they had access to parsers, they would see his numbers, my numbers, then tell me to get better and kick me. Now the opposite, if I was the better geared monk, and asked the other one to keep dragon kick up, it's going to be a 50/50 shot, either he will because he cares more about the party and wants to get the clear, or he won't because he cares more about his numbers, and the party comes second.

[Kaethra]

-Snip-

Sorry for cutting the post down but its getting tough to edit

I think we're on the same page and are sort of playing devil's advocate on the subject. And I liked your analogy about the stopwatch. I used to use the stopwatch on my watch whenever I took my Army PT test to keep a proper pace. That's parsing, and does that mean I cheated on my PT tests? I don't think so. And neither did my NCOs. When I look something up on the market board and use a calculator to see how much Gil I am going to have left over after buying it, is parsing too. Those examples are one value parses, but when does it become 'cheating' by some of these vocal members? When doing 2 parses, 3? 4? Where do you all draw the line? Where is SE drawing the line? Am I going to get actioned for saying I used a calculator to when buying things?

I mean I guess they could argue that everyone has a calculator and they can do it with a physical object. Well wait a minute. I could design an Android app to parse those log files through a wifi network (I've done similar things in my college IT projects). Does that suddenly make it ok?

There has to be a line drawn and it has to be clear cut and dry. For example, in the TOS it states that you cannot use programs that change game files. That's pretty specific and knocks out all hacks, cheats, and exploits. But Parsing is way too broad. They're going to have to be more specific. Because banning parsing means no screenshots can be modified or viewed (you can parse through these btw, using OCR technologies)

And I don't think their stance is clear. There's a 40+ page thread in the DPS Section of these forums discussing parses, damage calculators and spreadsheets for each class and none have been actioned, warned, or locked. If SE wants to be serious and crack down, every one of those threads should be locked, deleted, and the OP's and participates warned.

The only way players know how much damage a Black Mages Fire III will do with x number of Det and y amount of Magic Damage is through parsing. And they're pretty open about it.

As to the rest of the people in this thread...

My advice to anyone who is against parsing is to try them. Not on FFXIV, but on Everquest 1 or 2. GameParse for EQ1 and Advanced Combat Tracker for EQ2. Both programs are legit and authorized by SOE so you will not be breaking their TOS. See how they work and what they actually do.

Of course some of you are against them for the abuse. Well I'm sorry to say, but if someone is underperforming (whether it be their ability to Tank, DPS, or Heal, their gear, their attitude, or their performance), it is NOT harassment for me to decide I do not wish to play with them. I am free to disband from the group or my friends and I are free to vote disband the group and requeue for any reason at all or no reason at all.

Now calling names and insults is another matter entirely. That has nothing to do with Parsing. Parsing doesn't cause or make that easier, the ingame chat makes its possible. We don't ban Chat because of its ability to allow harassment.

[Tashigi]

At this point it's clear you're just a troll who should head back to /v/.

Many on these forums choose to ignore Gormogon and avoid conversation/responding to him, regardless of the topic.
He's stubborn/trolling/both or worse.
You can't reason with that kind of mentality, so it's best to simply avoid/ignore them.

[saeedaisspecial]

So you don't just want a simple parser that tells dps, you want something like world of logs where you can see stuff like buff and debuff up time and all that. I'm one of those that right now, they say parsers are against the rules, so I think using them is wrong, right now. I see the use from them, and if they ok them in the future so be it, but they are just a tool, they are by no means required. While it was nifty to look at, world of logs was just ridiculous in the amount of information it gave and it was ridiculous when raid groups started making you link your Logs page to them so they could evaluate you before they decided if you were worthy of grouping with them. And that is the kind of stuff SE is trying to avoid. They would rather a group give you a shot, and kick you if you don't measure up, rather than dismissing you based on numbers before hand.

Also dps isn't always as clear as folks think, if I roll into a raid as a monk, and see there is a better geared monk there, I will make sure he knows that I will handle the dragon kick buff, so he can maximize his dps. To some people if they see the dps numbers afterward, I suck because his numbers are so much better than mine, but if you think about it, some of his dps is because of me, every other rotation, he gets a free crit bootshine because of me. If you have people that know about this kind of stuff, they can handle the parsers ok, but I doubt the majority of the people would do that if they had access to parsers, they would see his numbers, my numbers, then tell me to get better and kick me. Now the opposite, if I was the better geared monk, and asked the other one to keep dragon kick up, it's going to be a 50/50 shot, either he will because he cares more about the party and wants to get the clear, or he won't because he cares more about his numbers, and the party comes second.

What you are describing in your first paragraph is a player issue. I do not think that parsers should be limited because some people may misuse them. It would be like banning cars because some people use them to kill people. Instead, as others have stated in the thread multiple times, players should be punished for harassment over parse data, as opposed to punished for parsing.

As far your second paragraph, that is something that an in depth parser would reveal to someone that utilised it properly. Again, it would be a player not reading their parse correctly. Not an inherent problem with parsing, but with how people read it.
Maybe if we lived in a perfect world, no one would find fault with parsers because no one would harass people over them.

[Gormogon]

Also dps isn't always as clear as folks think, if I roll into a raid as a monk, and see there is a better geared monk there, I will make sure he knows that I will handle the dragon kick buff, so he can maximize his dps. To some people if they see the dps numbers afterward, I suck because his numbers are so much better than mine, but if you think about it, some of his dps is because of me, every other rotation, he gets a free crit bootshine because of me. If you have people that know about this kind of stuff, they can handle the parsers ok, but I doubt the majority of the people would do that if they had access to parsers, they would see his numbers, my numbers, then tell me to get better and kick me. Now the opposite, if I was the better geared monk, and asked the other one to keep dragon kick up, it's going to be a 50/50 shot, either he will because he cares more about the party and wants to get the clear, or he won't because he cares more about his numbers, and the party comes second.

Yeah it's pretty sad that I've never seen a "parser" ever state that kind of stuff and that's what causes such selfish play and you can see it a lot during speed runs and when bards don't want to play songs and so on and so on.

As far your second paragraph, that is something that an in depth parser would reveal to someone that utilised it properly.

That's some good trolling right there.