FF14's Card Game ~ Improving On the Old

[Parz3val]

TL;DR Version

-Balance for Competitive Multiplayer
-Combine Triple Triad & Tetra Master
-Reduce RNG-Reliance
-Achievements/Collector’s Level
-Adjustable Trade Rules
-Card Bonding/Leveling
-Card Conversion
-Custom/Tournament Rules
-Division/League Play
-Global/Regional Ladder/Ranking
-In-Game Seeded Tournaments!!!
-New Rule Options: Draft & Unique
-Refreshed Purpose for Older Content

Both FF8 & FF9's Card Games had their own strengths & weaknesses. I'd like to propose we create a better card game for FF14, drawing from the strengths of the former. My hope is SE uses this thread to help inform the inevitable release of their card game, or takes inspiration from the text. Please share your own contributions & feedback!


FF8's Triple Triad

9-Grid (3x3)
Cardinals
Elements
Static Cards
Trade Rules

+purely skill-based
+finely balanced cards
+customizable ruleset
-lacks depth
-some silly rules

FF9's Tetra Master

16-Grid
Card Leveling
Card Powers
Diagonals
Grid-Blocks

+lots of depth
+collector's level
-grossly rng-based
-no custom rules

The larger board & randomized grid-blocks made for a wonderful experience in Tetra Master which ultimately felt much more rich than Triple Triad. However, too much reliance on RNG killed any competitive value Tetra Master might have otherwise had. On the flip side, Triple Triad has that "easy to learn, hard to master" appeal.


Custom Rules that worked:

Combo (connected weaker cards taken also)
Elemental (bonus for matching element, hindrance for opposing)
Open (visible hands)
Plus (sum of two connected cards equals power, flip both)
Random (random hands)
Same (two connected cards both equal to power, flip both)

Additionally, I would add two new Rule Options: Draft & Unique. Draft would be an open-handed form of play where players take turns selecting their playing cards. Unique means what it sounds like, no cards of the same kind in your hand.

As well, I would opt to remove Same-Wall, made for too much custom "bloat" imo (the grid-walls would count as powers of 10 for Plus & Same Rule purposes).

Trade Rules were a nice touch as well. Having the option to decide between One (winner takes one among cards captured), Diff (winner takes equal to the difference of cards captured), Direct (winner/loser both keep their respective card captures), & All (winner takes all) would be exciting in player-matches. However, I think this option should be limited to "in-person duels" (versus ranked queue).

Custom Rules ought also mostly be limited to in-person duels so as to reduce queue times & create a more standardized, "tournament" ruleset for ladder/ranking purposes. Perhaps Combo defaulted on & option for either "Open" or "Closed" Hand queues.

Lastly, a revision of Card Powers is essential for this game to thrive. In Tetra Master, a godlike card could lose to a bottom-tier card on the basis of severe RNG. A power of 10 could random-roll any number between 0-175 vs. a defense of 1 able to random-roll any number between 0-15... you merely "upped your odds" of success probability-wise against a terrible card, but were still subject to losing in lieu of harsh RNG.

Some RNG is okay & often beneficial, however it shouldn't be game-breaking or spoil competitive play. This method turned Tetra Master into a luck-based game vs. skill & would ultimately ruin the experience in a PvP environment.

I propose all the RNG lie in randomized element & grid-blocks placement. Naturally, the board should spawn no more than 6 each of elements & grid-blocks, though I think it'd be neat for in-person dueling only to be able to adjust these figures.


What I propose:

16-Grid (4x4)
Card Powers
Collector's Level
Custom Rules
Diagonals
Elements
Grid-Blocks
Minimal RNG
Trade Rules

As you can tell, this is much more akin to Tetra Master but draws heavily from Triple Triad. Tetra Master naturally had Combos enabled by default, but I think having the option to disable them would be interesting. Additionally, I've infused it with Custom Rule Options (plus Unique, minus Same-Wall), Elements, & Trade Rules. As stated above, there must be a standardized Ranked Queue for the sake of competitive play.

It would be extremely exciting if you could move up divisions/leagues. Card Tier ranges would rise with Player Rank & to queue within certain ranges, you must possess a minimum card amount in the respective tiers. Ex. Low-Grade Tier Queue could require 10 of each tier 1, 2, & 3 cards, etc.


Card Powers should be tweaked thusly:

As above, remove the RNG element.

In Tetra Master, cards had an offensive strength & type as well as both physical & magical defensive stats. Ex. an 8P64 would beat a 5M42 in direct combat as 8 physical (P) power trumps 4 physical defense. Types include: P, M, X, or A. P & M would match against physical & magical defensive stats, respectively. X would match against the lesser of the two defensive stats (think Chaos damage) & A would match against the lowest figure altogether (like X but also pairs against card power).

Like before, a power of 10 could lose against a defense of 1 & I don't think that should be the case here. The offensive types alone serve strategic play well enough, especially when combined with rules like Plus or Same.


Three final touches would cap this suggestion off nicely: Card Bonding, Card Leveling, & Collector's Level.

Card Bonding is the process of Spirit-Bonding cards through use. Once Spiritbonded, a card can be converted into an item from the creature's loot table (with a flat % chance for HQ) or an exclusive, unique drop (e.g. Twintania or Xande Minions!). Special drops should be cosmetic/vanity-based only so as not to 'force' anyone into playing.

Hunt Marks cards could even convert into Allied Seals with a chance for a Blood-Spattered Log!

A neat bonus to this feature is the ability to net one add'l loot for the week from current lockout content. This wouldn't be overly cheap as card drops from raid bosses would be somewhat rare anyway, SB at a slower, & nobody is guaranteed a loot item for the week anyway ("I main MNK & only ever see BRD drops!"), this could curb that to a very minor degree.

Cards would be tradable on the MB, however Spiritbond % would reset upon sale/trade. Raid Boss cards would either be untradable or become unconvertible upon sale/trade so as to prevent the gain of loot players haven't earned themselves (I prefer the latter).

Card Leveling would occur at both 50 & 100% SB rates. Say a card has an ilvl of 20, it would increase to i25 & i30 at max, providing a slight edge to those who've invested into their compositions. A single point raise in one form of defense could be equivalent to 5 ilvl's while a rise in power could equal 10. Therefore, some cards may not grow until 100% in the case of a power gain.

Another exciting aspect of this is that the type of growth could random/unknowable on a per-card basis. You could have one Dark Helmet card that grows in power & another which grows in defense (either 1 phys. & 1 mag. or 2 phys. or mag.).

Tiers could be every 20 ilvl's so a max-SB card would technically fall in like a "x.5" Tier Category, the edge of having a full-SB team could help a player push divisions but wouldn't be game-breaking due to the minor nature of the bonus (more fun than anything).

Ex. T1: i20-30, T2: i40-50, & etc. Divisions could be Tier-specific with Leagues every 3 Tiers; 12 Divisions & 4 Leagues (C, B, A, & S). Tiers could be compromised of mobs every 5 levels (e.g. T1: mobs 1-5, T10: mobs 45-50), while Tiers 11/12 would comprise current & past Dungeon/Raid Content (e.g. T11: High-Level Dungeons, CT, Older Primals, BC1-5, T12: Expert-Level Dungeons, ST, Newer Primals, BC6-9).

Divisions & Tiers match while League-Play could require the use of cards from the prior 3 Divisions, for instance: a C League Deck must perhaps be comprised of 3 D1, 2 D2, & 1 D3 cards. Players could queue both by league & divisionally though maybe only League-Play would count toward Ladder/Ranking.

Collector's Level would be awesome for achievers & completionists. For every X number of unique cards gained, one could rise in CL & earn unique achievement rewards/titles. A fun example of special reward would be Minion//Mount/NPC cards (e.g. Fat Chocobo & Hildebrand cards!). Would give plenty of reason for players to go out into the world & back into those older dungeons which would be a huge plus for FFXIV in my opinion.


What do you all think?!

[Fluttersnipe]

What do I think? I think I'm not smart enough to contribute to this thread in a constructional sense. So I'll just say this, Tetra Master was WAY more fun.

[HakuroDK]

I hate to be one of those people because this thread intrigues me, but that... is kind of a lot of text. Could you possibly give a tl;dr version at the bottom of your post? Sorry to be a pain about that!

Also, I'd like to endorse the idea of Adventurer Cards, which would be unique, rare, one-of-a-kind, impossible to desynth or discard cards that would evolve with one's collector level from being extremely weak to one of the most powerful cards in the game. Again, depending entirely on Collector Level. Maybe even have "Materia Tokens" to modify a character card's stats, which can be attained by desynthing cards.

Another idea would be to establish a special reward currency earned by winning games, called "Allagan Cardstones" or something, which can be used to purchase glamour items in FFXIV, such as "Legacy" gear, "Legacy" Wind-up Minions, "Legacy" Barding, "Legacy" Airship glamours (Airships are coming, and you KNOW there's going to be call for Airship glamours), Furniture, etc.

...and when I say "Legacy", I mean items that are inspired by past / present Final Fantasy games that may not be represented in XIV. Items that could be considered Legacy would be things like "Pilot's Chocobo Afro" (ilvl 1 Head gear, Legacy: FFXIII), "Wind-Up Garland" (Terrestrial Minion, Legacy: FFI), "Magitek Barding" (Chocobo Barding, Legacy: FFVI), "Invincible Hull Plating" (ilvl 1 Hull Plating, Legacy: FFIX), "Magic Lamp" (Tabletop Furniture, Legacy: FFV / FFVIII)

And of course, being able to buy Card Packs in FFXIV with Gil or GC Seals. The more powerful the cards, the more expensive the packs.

[Musashidon]

personally i am against this.

1. my main reason is i want something original i don't want ff8 or ff9 card game. sorta like everyone wants blitzball added, which i am personally against because i would rather get something original and not just something we already seen and had before.

2 the idea of spirit bonding cards and turning them into items is just either too op or too worthless. this will be a hit or miss like hunts it would just be really worthless or overly worth it.

a card game should stay a card game and be part of only the card game. by making it part of the actual game it's not a mini game anymore it's a actual system that will make players feel forced to use.

[HakuroDK]

snip

1. I get what you're saying there. The game itself should be unique. And that's a fine idea.

2. The concept of spirit bonding cards and turning them into items is exactly as op / worthless as our current system of spirit bonding items and turning them into materia, or desynthing items into other items. I see zero issue with it.

Honestly, I don't see it as something that should be a standalone thing. Everything in the game right now is already intertwined with everything else. Modern PVP in this game directly affects PVE, PVE gear has a direct impact on PVP, Gathering affects Crafting, both of which affect the Market, which affects everyone and almost everything. Retainers affect everyone. All of the dungeons affect crafting due to dropping of crafting gear. Most endgame content can affect retainers, which boosts their ilvl to drop high-level stuff.

Separating a single gameplay asset from the rest would make the game feel extremely artificial compared to every other gameplay asset. Heck, in a way, it almost wouldn't be worth the time and effort to code it, because only the diehard card game fans would actually play it, and everyone else would leave it alone. If it becomes intertwined into the gameplay, even if it's just for a bunch of items that players can get through at least five other methods, that will significantly boost popularity for the feature, due to it being a unique gameplay feature that doubles as a method of earning said items.

I don't want to be forced to use a feature either. Though is it not true that I am forced to participate in certain specific content to get certain specific items? I am forced to desynth a bunch of random fish just to boost my skill high enough to desynth gigantsharks and get my hands on some new glamour pieces. I am forced to deal with difficult, angry people to participate in and complete the Coil plotline. I am forced to run Syrcus Tower over and over and over to get the Throne Gem and the Wind-Up Onion Knight. Does that mean all of those features are bad? Not really, no. It just rewards specialists for being specialists, while still granting stuff to generalists who want to try everything.

[Musashidon]

snip

this is what i meant

.
Hunt Marks cards could even convert into Allied Seals with a chance for a Blood-Spattered Log!

A neat bonus to this feature is the ability to net one add'l loot for the week from current lockout content. This wouldn't be overly cheap as card drops from raid bosses would be somewhat rare anyway, SB at a slower, & nobody is guaranteed a loot item for the week anyway ("I main MNK & only ever see BRD drops!"), this could curb that to a very minor degree.

Cards would be tradable on the MB, however Spiritbond % would reset upon sale/trade. Raid Boss cards would either be untradable or become unconvertible upon sale/trade so as to prevent the gain of loot players haven't earned themselves (I prefer the latter).

forcing people to do raid content for a mini game? that's like asking people to beat twintania while its raining at 5am for sightseeing.

minions don't do much and even mounts are no different other then looks. sure you can say well you can just ignore those cards but my point is unless you're saying the cards don't matter and i can use the weakest card and still beat say a twintania card then you're forcing players who just wanna play a card game into end game raid content to even be able to effectively play a mini game.

so what i am saying is i don't mind collector items being hard to get. but when it directly affect people where they have to just say welp i can't get this so i can't play this game because someone can just farm the rare cards that i have no chance of getting and stomp me it will greatly decrease the number of people who could enjoy the game.

[DoubleT]

1. my main reason is i want something original i don't want ff8 or ff9 card game. sorta like everyone wants blitzball added, which i am personally against because i would rather get something original and not just something we already seen and had before.

I'd rather them do a repeat of the card games, cuz i've seen SE failures before. In XI SE put in choco racing an a thing called Prankration (which was like pokemon fights an pokemon snap put together) and both were huge flops, literally nobody did them, cuz they were pretty lame. I'd rather SE go with at least 1 thing they know will work an people will enjoy, then they can get experimental with it an test some new ideas. But if they flop on new ideas right off the bat, then we are stuck with nothing to do still. Now they could add some tweaks to the card games to make them have a new feel an all, but should keep that classic gameplay.

[Freyt]

I have basically wanted Triple Triad as an online card game since forever.

So... my opinion is pretty obvious. Tetra Master was indeed too RNG based and just didn't have any definitive result, and card stats resulted in way too many possibilities and farming.

I don't think card drops should be exclusive to instances. In fact I think they should be excluded from them entirely. For card drops, you should go with things like weekly randomized card packs, trading (and winning), as well as maybe something like a "Card" ability to use in the wild on monsters. I don't think cards should be too rare that only a handful of people have them, or at least so that the rarest cards are ones no one will use other than to show off.

[Parz3val]

@Mushashidon, you wouldn't be forced to raid.

The cards in each division would be perfectly balanced against others in the same division. A Scylla card would be no more powerful than a Nael card, for instance. To compete in the "Upper-Tier" League (optional), you'd only need 1 "end-game division" card, which consist of Levi/Moogle/Ramuh Ex, any boss in Ct2, & SCOB cards. These cards are purchasable on the MB too (just no longer convertible).

And the SB wouldn't be OP, some might argue next-to-worthless but if they don't want the items nor care... they could just discard or sell the cards. Maybe even do a Card Transmutation, turn 5 cards of a Tier in for 1 random card in the next Tier.

[Adeline]

All I know is that I want a Card game, nao

Give it to us plz Yoshi <333