So resetting's against the rules now?

[Thayos]

"Intent" so far has been the hotword of the night, and sadly, I feel it doesn't accurately resolve the situation.

I don't think we should be waiting for SE to solve this problem for us. It's a gray area. It's up to us as a community to use our best judgment and to not fly off the handle when things don't go our way.

Also, it's just a game.

Yikes. What you just described IS intent to disrupt. By saying "I did it to help the group that's not here yet get credit" and thinking you did nothing wrong, you intentionally IGNORE

Yikes... what you're saying here is so inherently flawed.

[Ashkendor]

Often, someone will reset the NM. I have never once seen the puller criticised in game, but U/U get cussed and blisted out the wazoo.

Not criticized in game =/= not doing something wrong. Many people don't speak up about things like this because of the massive zerg horde on the opposing side. Nobody wants to speak up only to have 30 people yell back "stfu noob" and "get better" along with even more colorful and/or disgusting things of varying degrees.

Yet on the forums everyone appears to think the deserter is the griefer, not the person denying hundreds of people a chance to get seals.

I've seen people chain-reset a mob half a dozen times. Yes, it's griefing. Sometimes I'll find a B rank at a time when several of my FC are kicking around not doing much of anything, and I'll grab a few people. We'll party up and kick the snot out of Gatling (I owe that little bugger anyway, he bit my Botanist D:<) or heck, I even duoed Ovjang with my best friend. If someone from the zerg horde were to come stomping along and try to reset it so that all of their buddies could get five more seals, you can bet your butt I'd report them. Most of the time when I find a B rank, I'll tell a hunt linkshell or just shout to the zone but I am absolutely not obligated to do so; the amount of people that show up and reset the mobs when they're almost dead makes me not want to share at all, honestly.

"Denying hundreds of people the chance to get seals" - the flaw with that logic is that nobody is entitled to get seals from every single hunt mob that spawns in every single zone on any given day. Most people choose to share information about A rank spawn times and such, but the fact of the matter is hunting is always going to be a somewhat competitive activity. If you didn't find it, you aren't really entitled to it and if you do get credit for it it's because someone else was nice enough to tell you where it was. Either way, the hunt linkshells and parties aren't really concerned with "the greater good" in my experience. It's more a matter of "Are all of our people here? OK good." There's exceptions of course, but those are just that - exceptions.

Bear in mind, this FC does nothing to pop the NMs and often causes those who find/pop it to get minimum rewards as the rest of the group wasn't there. Their only purpose is to make it harder for people to get seals.

If they're outright saying that their purpose is to grief people, well then you know what to do. :P

[ispano]

Yikes... what you're saying here is so inherently flawed.

Then explain why it's flawed. Because that IS what happens.

[Thayos]

First, you need to explain what gives you the right to assume and declare what others are thinking.

Your entire argument is built on false logic.

You need to figure out a way to build your argument on something more tangible than your assumptions on what someone else's thoughts may be (especially when you're getting it wrong).

You also need to accept that SE isn't using your personal morality as its moral compass. Rather, SE is investigating individual user intent. Thank goodness for that.

[Aegis]

To be honest, that's how it should be. Even hunt groups portray that exact mentality. Who's the one that shouts in the zone? Not the hunt group, it's the solo player. Members of the LS/FC might tell their friends about something, and that's acceptable by everyone, but there's still the exclusive nature that if you're not part of them, you have little rights of say on the matter. Which is where the flaw starts to come to light. The concern is only for those that are part of your circle, even if it is 100 people, it's still a concern for ONLY your own. Telling or implying that a smaller outside group essentially has no right to pull something, when your specific circle is not around, is bullying and promoting a monopoly by only you and yours. You may not see it that way because you're part of the larger group, but it IS seen that way by the smaller party. Just like with actual RL bullying, the one doing it often does not see it that way, despite the clear indication that it is by the victim. Obviously, this is a video game and not essentially the same as bullying IRL, but the similarities really are evident.

My circle is the whole server.

I never said they have no right to, just that it's selfish to. Also, that's some Minitru level of doublethink. By encouraging people to wait to allow others to contribute you're encouraging a monopoly? wat?

But if you got there late, and a different party is well into the fight itself, you're not as righteous as you might think you are if you decide to reset so that your group can get there for full credit. Now if you admit to it being a bad/messed up action for doing this, then I can just drop the argument on it because... there's no need to go further. If however, you still view this as a purely positive thing, then wow...

I do agree with this. But can you agree that there are circumstances where resetting the mob can have no negative impact on anyone and be a net benefit to the server or do you believe that resetting is a purely negative thing in all circumstances because, wow...

[ispano]

There's a reason we have certain terms and phrases. Examples, some less perfect than others are "Criminal Negligence" or "The road to hell is paved with good intentions"

Resetting a mob so another group has more time to get there, while you may be intending to do good by the group that's not there yet, you are harming those that were already fighting. Whether you acknowledge it or not. Has nothing to do with morality, it's simply thinking about the consequences of your actions. And not ignoring them.

So, if you say I don't know what people are thinking and they are NOT ignoring what they are doing to those who are already fighting, then they knew what they were doing and the intent is all the more clear.

[Enkrateia]

As a player myself, I can certainly appreciate the good intentions of resetting to try to let as many people as possible get the rewards as possible. However, that being said, the reality of these intentions have been pointed out in this thread by others: by intentionally resetting a hunt mark, you have chosen to interfere with the game play of other customers.

The most common anecdotal cases that highlight how this could be an issue are those enemies that can disable large groups with abilities, such as those that cause long-lasting petrification/sleep. Resetting does not remove these effects, and with a large group arriving, this could cause the people who were fighting it to not be able to participate (or fully participate) due to the hunt mark dying quickly. Even with a full group, bad timing could result in no participation when you and your full group was there and fairly participating before.

Resetting is a very temporary resolution that can have real impact on another group's game play, since monsters that are reset, in reality, do not go back to neutral. They are immediately attacked, which continues the cycle, only possibly excluding other customers who were able to make it in a timely manner.

[Aegis]

If they're outright saying that their purpose is to grief people, well then you know what to do. :P

Actually, that's not griefing.

As a player myself, I can certainly appreciate the good intentions of resetting to try to let as many people as possible get the rewards as possible. However, that being said, the reality of these intentions have been pointed out in this thread by others: by intentionally resetting a hunt mark, you have chosen to interfere with the game play of other customers.

The most common anecdotal cases that highlight how this could be an issue are those enemies that can disable large groups with abilities, such as those that cause long-lasting petrification/sleep. Resetting does not remove these effects, and with a large group arriving, this could cause the people who were fighting it to not be able to participate (or fully participate) due to the hunt mark dying quickly. Even with a full group, bad timing could result in no participation when you and your full group was there and fairly participating before.

Resetting is a very temporary resolution that can have real impact on another group's game play, since monsters that are reset, in reality, do not go back to neutral. They are immediately attacked, which continues the cycle, only possibly excluding other customers who were able to make it in a timely manner.

Can you say then outright that resetting is 100% griefing and reportable? Say the word and this is all cleared up and we'd know where we stand. Otherwise people with only good intentions and who are a net benefit to the server are going to get reported and penalised for what they thought was a good thing to do.

How could the GMs possibly work out someone's intent in resetting the mob? I can only see this as being stressful for them.

[Thayos]

Resetting a mob so another group has more time to get there, while you may be intending to do good by the group that's not there yet, you are harming those that were already fighting.

Then, by your logic, people who do resets are also choosing to potentially harm themselves in hopes of benefiting the greater good.

See, it's not so black and white... which is why SE is emphasizing intent above all else, as they should.

A good reset easily results in more people being helped than being harmed. There's no denying this. In addition, people who are playing the content as intended and grouped into parties are almost always likely to still get full credit if they're already there. I run hunts all the time; I know this first-hand.

[Alukah]

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You are failing to see something, what kind of intent is SE looking for? If someone is fighting a monster, their queue pops and they have to leave even if that person is reported for resetting said monster nothing will happen, his intent wasn't malicious. However, you are willingly and intentionally resetting a mob just so a few people from your circle of friends get full credit while disrupting the other players who are already fighting the monster, your intent IS malicious, you are aware there are other people already fighting that monster and you are attempting to clear out their contribution just so your party or LS can get full.


It seems to me like you are ignoring the GM's post and choosing what to read, the bottom line is do not reset elite marks, resetting elite marks can be seen as griefing.

To begin, at its most basic level, resetting hunt marks can be considered a grief tactics violation.

To dumb it down further: Reset = grief, the GMs will determine if you intended to reset the elite (grief) or not.