So resetting's against the rules now?

[Ashkendor]

Often, someone will reset the NM. I have never once seen the puller criticised in game, but U/U get cussed and blisted out the wazoo.

Not criticized in game =/= not doing something wrong. Many people don't speak up about things like this because of the massive zerg horde on the opposing side. Nobody wants to speak up only to have 30 people yell back "stfu noob" and "get better" along with even more colorful and/or disgusting things of varying degrees.

Yet on the forums everyone appears to think the deserter is the griefer, not the person denying hundreds of people a chance to get seals.

I've seen people chain-reset a mob half a dozen times. Yes, it's griefing. Sometimes I'll find a B rank at a time when several of my FC are kicking around not doing much of anything, and I'll grab a few people. We'll party up and kick the snot out of Gatling (I owe that little bugger anyway, he bit my Botanist D:<) or heck, I even duoed Ovjang with my best friend. If someone from the zerg horde were to come stomping along and try to reset it so that all of their buddies could get five more seals, you can bet your butt I'd report them. Most of the time when I find a B rank, I'll tell a hunt linkshell or just shout to the zone but I am absolutely not obligated to do so; the amount of people that show up and reset the mobs when they're almost dead makes me not want to share at all, honestly.

"Denying hundreds of people the chance to get seals" - the flaw with that logic is that nobody is entitled to get seals from every single hunt mob that spawns in every single zone on any given day. Most people choose to share information about A rank spawn times and such, but the fact of the matter is hunting is always going to be a somewhat competitive activity. If you didn't find it, you aren't really entitled to it and if you do get credit for it it's because someone else was nice enough to tell you where it was. Either way, the hunt linkshells and parties aren't really concerned with "the greater good" in my experience. It's more a matter of "Are all of our people here? OK good." There's exceptions of course, but those are just that - exceptions.

Bear in mind, this FC does nothing to pop the NMs and often causes those who find/pop it to get minimum rewards as the rest of the group wasn't there. Their only purpose is to make it harder for people to get seals.

If they're outright saying that their purpose is to grief people, well then you know what to do. :P

[Aegis]

If they're outright saying that their purpose is to grief people, well then you know what to do. :P

Actually, that's not griefing.

As a player myself, I can certainly appreciate the good intentions of resetting to try to let as many people as possible get the rewards as possible. However, that being said, the reality of these intentions have been pointed out in this thread by others: by intentionally resetting a hunt mark, you have chosen to interfere with the game play of other customers.

The most common anecdotal cases that highlight how this could be an issue are those enemies that can disable large groups with abilities, such as those that cause long-lasting petrification/sleep. Resetting does not remove these effects, and with a large group arriving, this could cause the people who were fighting it to not be able to participate (or fully participate) due to the hunt mark dying quickly. Even with a full group, bad timing could result in no participation when you and your full group was there and fairly participating before.

Resetting is a very temporary resolution that can have real impact on another group's game play, since monsters that are reset, in reality, do not go back to neutral. They are immediately attacked, which continues the cycle, only possibly excluding other customers who were able to make it in a timely manner.

Can you say then outright that resetting is 100% griefing and reportable? Say the word and this is all cleared up and we'd know where we stand. Otherwise people with only good intentions and who are a net benefit to the server are going to get reported and penalised for what they thought was a good thing to do.

How could the GMs possibly work out someone's intent in resetting the mob? I can only see this as being stressful for them.

[ispano]

Actually, that's not griefing.



Can you say then outright that resetting is 100% griefing and reportable? Say the word and this is all cleared up and we'd know where we stand.

How could the GMs possibly work out someone's intent in resetting the mob? I can only see this as being stressful for them.

There are actually accidental resets. Some have been mentioned in the thread even. Like if someone pulled an A rank, not realizing it was an A rank and a few people started fighting it. They now realize they can't tank it because they're alone and have no healer so they run away. There's more than just chat logs for SE to look at in regards to things like this.

[Alukah]

Can you say then outright that resetting is 100% griefing and reportable? Say the word and this is all cleared up and we'd know where we stand. Otherwise people with only good intentions and who are a net benefit to the server are going to get reported and penalised for what they thought was a good thing to do.

How could the GMs possibly work out someone's intent in resetting the mob? I can only see this as being stressful for them.

OK, Enkrateia... now I am thoroughly confused (which isn't easy to do).

First, you said SE ultimately looks toward intent in determining violations.

Now, you're saying even good intent interferes with gameplay.

So which is it? Is a person with good intent NOT punished because his or her intent wasn't to grief, or is the person punished because any reset that's not accidental could potentially interfere with someone else?



I have, and until the last post, the most important word in all of them was "intent."

Again, work from the confirmed fact that resetting an elite means griefing, what they have to determine when someone resets if they really wanted to reset the elite (intentionally) or not, not your personal reasons behind the reset, because every single person will have a different reason.

The reset was intentional and the person has previous records of showing that kind of behavior? Warning.
The reset was not intentional and the person has no previous records of showing that kind behavior? Walk free.

[ispano]

I have, and until the last post, the most important word in all of them was "intent."

Right here.

Again, work from the confirmed fact that resetting an elite means griefing, what they have to determine when someone resets if they really wanted to reset the elite (intentionally) or not, not your personal reasons behind the reset, because every single person will have a different reason.

Basically, even though you intended to help the group that was incoming, that doesn't change that you intentionally, even indirectly, griefed those already fighting for someone elses benefit. Be it yourself or the incoming group.

But it also wouldn't hurt if some people were a little less selfish (I'm looking at you, early pullers) in their gameplay.

Yee, Post Limit.

That's another misconception. If the mob is not claimed and just walking around, it's free game. That's actually the way the system is designed. It's just the people who feel they have good intentions, want to get as many people in as possible that goes against it. Especially since these "rules" if you will are player made, and not everyone agrees with them, leaving them really with no legs to stand on, since those rules don't apply. You can say it's selfish of those who pulled with the intent to get credit. I can say it's selfish of the group to tell people they have to wait, considering how the contribution system works.

No, there are early pulls. If a mob is found by members of a group who are then waiting for their friends to arrive before pulling, and then you run in there and pull, then that's an early pull.

Justify it all you want, but it is what it is. You can't say people who reset are always in the wrong but then act like early pullers are always in the right.

The mob was unclaimed, they claimed it. They most certainly ARE in the right.

I wouldn't call that a confirmation. The GM says that yes, resetting a mob does disrupt gameplay... but the GM already said this in his/her first post here. The GM then went on to say that investigations are ultimately done to determine the nature of the violator's intent... which, in post 77, the GM says can be "good."

No, he said he appreciates the good intentions. Not that those good intentions are ok. In fact he says it in the sentence right after.

As a player myself, I can certainly appreciate the good intentions of resetting to try to let as many people as possible get the rewards as possible. However, that being said, the reality of these intentions have been pointed out in this thread by others: by intentionally resetting a hunt mark, you have chosen to interfere with the game play of other customers.

The most common anecdotal cases that highlight how this could be an issue are those enemies that can disable large groups with abilities, such as those that cause long-lasting petrification/sleep. Resetting does not remove these effects, and with a large group arriving, this could cause the people who were fighting it to not be able to participate (or fully participate) due to the hunt mark dying quickly. Even with a full group, bad timing could result in no participation when you and your full group was there and fairly participating before.

Resetting is a very temporary resolution that can have real impact on another group's game play, since monsters that are reset, in reality, do not go back to neutral. They are immediately attacked, which continues the cycle, only possibly excluding other customers who were able to make it in a timely manner.

I still wonder about the situation I posed earlier in the thread, though. What if a party that finds a mob elects to shout and wait to allow others to try for credit, but a lone griefer decides to run in and pull the mob on their own to prevent the finding party from waiting? Are they then justified in attempting to reset the mob and resume waiting?

No, the group waiting didn't claim it, the mob was still up for grabs.

[Ashkendor]

Again, work from the confirmed fact that resetting an elite means griefing, what they have to determine when someone resets if they really wanted to reset the elite (intentionally) or not, not your personal reasons behind the reset, because every single person will have a different reason.

^ This. There are situations where a mob can be reset and it was unintentional. Maybe someone didn't see it and basically facepulled by way of tripping over it, but they kept on running. In this case, the mob would reset but it was accidental. Purposely resetting and saying over shout "I'M DOING THIS FOR YOU GUYS!" doesn't change that it's griefing. If it was that simple, every troll ever would just start to yell that their intent was good.

[Tridus1x]

Not sure why it's griefing if it's something the game lets you do. So if a healer doesn't heal me, I can report him? If a tank doesn't tank mobs in a dungeon I can report them? DPS not good enough? I can report them as well I guess.

If they really wanted to stop this reset issue, they would just make the mobs immune to provoke. Still it's silly that something the game openly allows is a reportable offense.

[ispano]

Not sure why it's griefing if it's something the game lets you do. So if a healer doesn't heal me, I can report him? If a tank doesn't tank mobs in a dungeon I can report them? DPS not good enough? I can report them as well I guess.

If they really wanted to stop this reset issue, they would just make the mobs immune to provoke. Still it's silly that something the game openly allows is a reportable offense.

There's a reason provoke doesn't work on the mobs. Same with FATE mobs. The reset is done by someone who can out enmity the people already on the mob, not provoke. Which is why if I see something, I always claim it on my Paladin since most people can't rip off me if I have those first few hits in.

[Tridus1x]

There's a reason provoke doesn't work on the mobs. Same with FATE mobs. The reset is done by someone who can out enmity the people already on the mob, not provoke. Which is why if I see something, I always claim it on my Paladin since most people can't rip off me if I have those first few hits in.

Ah that's good to know. Then I agree resetting a mob is a grief tactic. No matter the intentions.

[ValkyrieL]

I find an elite, give x/y waiting for my pt, some 1 come in 30 sec later and pulled... I will reset it 3x over if necessary for my pt to arrive.
What I don't understand is why GM made a long post about this when the response was so simple...are resets allowed? Yes/NO...there should be no intent...it should just be clear...or make it mechanically impossible to reset.