[dev1032] PUG skills singled out.

[Murugan]

It's not about making things easier, it's about removing needlessly stupid and unnecessary MP costs on attacks that aren't magic based at all. Pugilist should not have MP cost on attacks. I would be fine with Monk if it made sense, but that's the job Monk. Pugilist is strictly a fist fighting class.

Also as others have said it's about equality. Other classes have skills that have the same effect but no MP cost. Why only Pugilist?

Other melee classes do also have abilities that cost them MP. It's part of the game, you are too hung up on "magic based"=mage, it's a fantasy game many things have a bit of magical explanation surrounding them (including pugilists).

[hotah]

Light strike is simply better than other abilities, as is pummel. So I'm fine with them having MP cost as long as we have a way (within our class) to maintain them with some effort.

Wait, how is pummel better? Our autoattack is 2 swings. It's a 2 swing strike. Pugilists are balanced around 2 swings. It's essentially the same skill as Full Thrust or Heavy Swing.

Also, shouldn't Light Stab have an MP cost since it provides a buff after using it, too?

[Greed]

That's not really fair. Light strike is simply better than other abilities, as is pummel. So I'm fine with them having MP cost as long as we have a way (within our class) to maintain them with some effort.

Now since we don't currently have this, I think we need either an in-class solution or them removed.

My bigger concern is that flurry is still broken in BR. This should have been fixed in 1.18a

Flurry still acts like it is a heavy strike activated ability, so it won't let you queue it. This makes no sense with the 1.18 changes.

Also as for how "fair" it is, it's really not hard to manage except in situations where you are tanking or dps'ing and healing yourself with cure quite a bit. In those cases (generally the instances) you do have the option of using Ethers. So it isn't like a gamebreaker or anything.

...you are talking about r45~50 pug....
( I grind sp solo = I have to fight while healing myself and no one want to join sp party for low level in my server)

[Physic]

Other melee classes do also have abilities that cost them MP. It's part of the game, you are too hung up on "magic based"=mage, it's a fantasy game many things have a bit of magical explanation surrounding them (including pugilists).

how is pummel any better than the lnc skill of the same description?

how is light strike too hax? its essentially the same buff as before, and it wasnt too hax then. Do you know pugilist is a tank, and yet it has the lowest armor rating for any mellee? do you know that approximately half of dmg skills are based on evasion, and virtually none of the gear that gives evasion cant be worn by a gladiator, and the best evasion gear is probably on archer?

light strike isnt some super hax, its a basic function of the pugilist build.

How is pugilist supposed to be a master of evasive fighting, when we have no more evasion than a gladiator or an archer, well now we can have it, but only for 1/3rd of the time.

their is no basic skill that costs mp on any other mellee job, heck there isnt even one on a mage job. and pugilist has
NO NATURAL MEANS for getting mp, it also doesnt even have a high mp/mind ratio. both lnc and archer get more mp.

In what twisted crazy world is it justified that we have to pay for our basic mechanic, does archer pay mp for multi shot? does lnc pay for speed surge? does mrd pay for steadfast stance?

it is really stupid for pugilist to have to pay for their basic mechanics in a resource they have no affinity for.

If they want it to make sense for monk, then they should put mp on monk skills, there really is NO LOGICAL EXPLANATION for this.

honestly it seems like matsui has no vision or idea what pugilist and marauder is supposed to be, he is trying to build them to be the same as lancer. Its like he decided that they are all really the same job, but you can just insert a couple different weapons, in fact it seems he is trying to make them into that.

the reason you think pugilist abilities are better is because you forget that pugilist doesnt have surges and steadfast. the only exclusive trait or ability that pugilist has is its basic attacks. (i mean abilities that do something not weaponskills, we all have weaponskills) so yeah when you try to compare light strike, keep in mind it was essentially supposed to be a passive type ability that defines the class, its the simplified answer they came up with for the idea of being able to commit to a defensive or offensive style of fighting, its also not a guild mark skill, it was one of the starter abilities of pugilist. Other than light strike there is nothing that would make pugilist have above average evasion.

[hotah]

Other melee classes do also have abilities that cost them MP. It's part of the game, you are too hung up on "magic based"=mage, it's a fantasy game many things have a bit of magical explanation surrounding them (including pugilists).

So the abilities that cost MP:

Trifucurcate 15 MP 120sec recast

Red Lotus 10 MP (cannot miss)

Luminous Spire 10 MP (cannot miss)

Iron Tempest 10 MP (aoe)


That said, rarely will people use Iron Tempest or Red Lotus. I don't see why its necessary to have the MP costs there at all really. Doesn't necessarily make things easier, just causes less of a headache.

[Murugan]

how is pummel any better than the lnc skill of the same description?

how is light strike too hax? its essentially the same buff as before, and it wasnt too hax then. Do you know pugilist is a tank, and yet it has the lowest armor rating for any mellee? do you know that approximately half of dmg skills are based on evasion, and virtually none of the gear that gives evasion cant be worn by a gladiator, and the best evasion gear is probably on archer?

light strike isnt some super hax, its a basic function of the pugilist build.

How is pugilist supposed to be a master of evasive fighting, when we have no more evasion than a gladiator or an archer, well now we can have it, but only for 1/3rd of the time.

their is no basic skill that costs mp on any other mellee job, heck there isnt even one on a mage job. and pugilist has
NO NATURAL MEANS for getting mp, it also doesnt even have a high mp/mind ratio. both lnc and archer get more mp.

In what twisted crazy world is it justified that we have to pay for our basic mechanic, does archer pay mp for multi shot? does lnc pay for speed surge? does mrd pay for steadfast stance?

it is really stupid for pugilist to have to pay for their basic mechanics in a resource they have no affinity for.

If they want it to make sense for monk, then they should put mp on monk skills, there really is NO LOGICAL EXPLANATION for this.

honestly it seems like matsui has no vision or idea what pugilist and marauder is supposed to be, he is trying to build them to be the same as lancer. Its like he decided that they are all really the same job, but you can just insert a couple different weapons, in fact it seems he is trying to make them into that.

You are way overreacting to this. Listen pugilist was my first class, it will always be my main class, and I'm not calling for it to be nerfed. But a minor MP cost on 2 of our abilities does not make us totally unbalanced. Other melee's do have MP costs associated with certain abilities too. Whether they are "basic" attacks or not is irrelevant post 1.18 because basic attacks have timers as long as most "stamina" buffs from before.

Also yes I know pugilist is a tank, I tank in darkhold and I have a complaint about the MP cost because of this. However I also use ethers when in Darkhold (well.. I try to/should at least) and because of that it is not a problem for me. I'd like them to add a native ability to regen a very small amount of MP through Second Wind, I think this would be the perfect solution.

In normal situations I can manage my MP just fine. Pugilist in general is "fine", we are getting a good buff in the next patch. I wish you'd stop calling for drastic, unnecessary changes to a class design that works as is, because those are the type that usually end up not being as beneficial (in terms of our balance in comparison to other classes) in the end as you'd think.

[NoctisUmbra]

Manageability is not the issue.

The skills offer nothing more than their other class versions, but for PGL they suddenly cost MP. There is simply no need for this. From a balancing perspective I cannot see the reasoning behind adding an MP Cost to either of them, but especially Pummel.

Pummel is essentially a regular hit that generates more TP than a basic attack. It is basically PGL's equivalent of LNC's Full Thrust, which costs no MP. Now, all of a sudden Pummel costs 20 MP? It doesn't even hit harder or anything.

In my opinion, what they should have done is change the function of Light Strike and Pummel. Go back to the roots of Pugilist class design, as it was depicted on the FFXIV website before the game's release.

Have Light Strike and Pummel act as Auto-Attack modifiers in the form of stances.

Light Strike - 10 MP, 60s Cooldown
Adopt a defensive stance, increasing defense and evasion while reducing damage done and TP generated by Auto-Attack. Enable counter-attack chains*. Effect lasts 300s.

Pummel - 20 MP, 60s Cooldown
Adopt an offensive stance, increasing Auto-Attack speed. Disable counter-attacks. Effect lasts 300s

*The ability to use Haymaker, Jarring Strike and/or Simian Thrash in succession.


Now if they went with something like this, not only would it make PGL a much more unique class, but it would justify the MP costs.

[Physic]

You are way overreacting to this. Listen pugilist was my first class, it will always be my main class, and I'm not calling for it to be nerfed. But a minor MP cost on 2 of our abilities does not make us totally unbalanced. Other melee's do have MP costs associated with certain abilities too. Whether they are "basic" attacks or not is irrelevant post 1.18 because basic attacks have timers as long as most "stamina" buffs from before.

Also yes I know pugilist is a tank, I tank in darkhold and I have a complaint about the MP cost because of this. However I also use ethers when in Darkhold (well.. I try to/should at least) and because of that it is not a problem for me. I'd like them to add a native ability to regen a very small amount of MP through Second Wind, I think this would be the perfect solution.

In normal situations I can manage my MP just fine. Pugilist in general is "fine", we are getting a good buff in the next patch. I wish you'd stop calling for drastic, unnecessary changes to a class design that works as is, because those are the type that usually end up not being as beneficial (in terms of our balance in comparison to other classes) in the end as you'd think.

Why is it you think pugilist should pay mp, to do the only thing that makes it special? Evasion is now the only thing pugilist has, because they killed the flurry increased tp/offense mechanic. I like pugilist as well, but the mp issue defies logic, sure you can probably still do your job, your just not as good at it for 2/3rds the time, AND you have a mp pool limit on how long you can do it.

But you have no mp mechanics! you are probably tied for lowest mp pool in the game, what is the logic? Every one else does it for free, in fact lancer has the exact same skill for free? Why?

[Arcell]

No one's asking for "drastic unnecessary changes". We simply want the be on equal ground with other damage classes. Why do we have MP costs on basic attacks when other classes don't? It's not like they do anything particularly special. You can't really argue it from a buff standpoint because most War class buffs and attacks that buff don't require MP. Why should Light Strike require MP when Featherfoot doesn't? Featherfoot actually has a much greater version of the same effect.

Managing MP isn't the issue either. The issue is that MP costs on these skills are unnecessary and make absolutely no sense. Why are they there? They clearly shouldn't be.

At R50 with 93 Mind I have 479 MP. Sure that's quite a bit but throw Cure II in there along with MP costs from Pummel and Light Strike and it goes pretty quick. I don't think most people playing Pugilist have that much Mind honestly. I only have it that way because I occasionally play mage classes and we haven't received the per-class point distribution yet.

[Physic]

No one's asking for "drastic unnecessary changes". We simply want the be on equal ground with other damage classes. Why do we have MP costs on basic attacks when other classes don't? It's not like they do anything particularly special. You can't really argue it from a buff standpoint because most War class buffs and attacks that buff don't require MP. Why should Light Strike require MP when Featherfoot doesn't? Featherfoot actually has a much greater version of the same effect.

Managing MP isn't the issue either. The issue is that MP costs on these skills are unnecessary and make absolutely no sense. Why are they there? They clearly shouldn't be.

At R50 with 93 Mind I have 479 MP. Sure that's quite a bit but throw Cure II in there along with MP costs from Pummel and Light Strike and it goes pretty quick. I don't think most people playing Pugilist have that much Mind honestly. I only have it that way because I occasionally play mage classes and we haven't received the per-class point distribution yet.

I really think they are messing with pugilist for the sake of thier vision of monk, but whatever monk is, pugilist is not that. If they want to give Monk an ability that enhances light strike, but makes it cost mp, or cost mp itself, thats fine, if they want to make mind a good secondary stat for monk, ok whatever. But it really has no place on pugilist, and no place on basic attacks. If they want it to have a mana cost, give it a reason, make it make sense within its on class mechanics, and compared to other jobs.