Please re-evaluate the difficulty of previous endgame content on the DF

[ispano]

Well yes, gear can only carry you so far, having some measure of skill is necessary. As Mei already said, you can't make assumptions and sweeping generalisations about every single player, which I see a lot of people doing on these forums. In fact, it hardly ever seems to happen in-game, just here :/ How do you know that they aren't going to go away and try to improve on their skills and do better? Why can't some people get that others take longer to learn things and just need more practice? Is it the age or something? Older people just seem to be more patient and tolerant overall? I know that's not true though Just feels like a load of kids screaming "hurry up, hurry up, do it right or you CAN'T PLAY cos you SUCK!" whilst throwing their toys at you.

But that's sort of the thing. They CAN learn to do it in a relatively short amount of time. They just don't want to. Yes, don't want to. I always see Mei bring this argument. And it sickens me. It plays people down like they can't get better or that they are very slow learners and such, and that is just degrading to people in general. People CAN easily do better than they are. They choose not to because they feel they shouldn't have to put forth that much effort because it's a game. Because they feel doing so makes it a job.

They are welcome to feel like that. However, not all parts of this game are for them at that point. And they need to deal with that. Coil is optional, they don't have to do it if they aren't willing to put forth the required effort.

[MeiUshu]

Being new to MMOs makes them less capable of following simple "when X happens do Y" instructions?

Are these people given a driver's license? Because if so I'm scared.

how many driving lessons you need though before you being able to drive a car on your own ? eh?

It may sicken you Ispano but it doesnt any less make it a reality eh?...you assume that people are bad, without knowing, you assume they dont awnt to put forth the effort without knowing if they actually factually dont do the best they can with what they know and have .. you generalize and overall represent why this game is going downhill...the silliness isnt in those that fail but in those that believe they are some superior entitiy that can look down on others based on what they believe reality should be like (virtual reality that is). Now I have met genuine nice players and I was able to improve thanks to them but they so far and in between that it makes them a rare thing.. and when it happens is such a pleasure to work with them and play the game.

Besides, in a group there are others 7 players with you...some events you can control others you cant...I would recomment humility when playing in a group oh wait, what am I thinking humility...wht a silyl word (irony)


Mei

[micropanther7]

Yeah Ispano, I do agree there, about not wanting to learn! Very good points you brought up, it is true, some people just don't wish to, and feel some of the harder content is impossible for them, or just don't enjoy it. And I do agree that there's a difference between people who refuse to learn, and others who do wish to yet find it harder than most (can see why someone might find that insulting as well). I just object to people on both sides of the fence giving others a hard time, stop bickering and get playing!

[Defteros]

how many driving lessons you need though before you being able to drive a car on your own ? eh?

Mei

it depends on people.
there are "naturals" , and there are slow learner.
that is the distinction between the so-called "elitist" and the "casual player" ( kind of.)

then again, based on this example, I've seen people failing their driving license lots and lots of times.
because they don't want to put effort in it.

[ispano]

how many driving lessons you need though before you being able to drive a car on your own ? eh?

Mei

Depends on how willing that person is to force themselves to actually learn.

[ispano]

how many driving lessons you need though before you being able to drive a car on your own ? eh?

It may sicken you Ispano but it doesnt any less make it a reality eh?...you assume that people are bad, without knowing, you assume they dont awnt to put forth the effort without knowing if they actually factually dont do the best they can with what they know and have .. you generalize and overall represent why this game is going downhill...the silliness isnt in those that fail but in those that believe they are some superior entitiy that can look down on others based on what they believe reality should be like (virtual reality that is). Now I have met genuine nice players and I was able to improve thanks to them but they so far and in between that it makes them a rare thing.. and when it happens is such a pleasure to work with them and play the game.

Besides, in a group there are others 7 players with you...some events you can control others you cant...I would recomment humility when playing in a group oh wait, what am I thinking humility...wht a silyl word (irony)


Mei

No, YOU'RE the one assuming people are bad. With things like "they might learn slower than you" That's basically saying that some people aren't as good. I do NOT think that way. I feel that everyone, outside of obvious exceptions(mental conditions and many other things) CAN do better than they do most of the time. We're all humans, and while we do have differences, we all have pretty much the same capacity to learn. I say what I do about not wanting to put in the effort because I SEE it. People literally say it's "too much like a job" "it's too much work" "I don't want to work that hard, it's just a game"

So, no, YOUR view is the one putting people down and assuming they're bad automatically. I assume they CAN do better, and if they don't within a reasonable amount of attempts, they don't want to try. If you see a mechanic is killing you. Or if someone points it out to you. You should not be dying to that same mechanic 10, 20 or more attempts after that. And, yet, people are.

So, again, Almost everyone has the ability to learn quickly and the like. They choose not to. And if they choose not to put in the effort for a given piece of content, they should not be there. Nor should they expect drastic nerfs either.

One last thing, a big part of learning is KNOWING your weaknesses in that regard and compensating for them. Many people don't even look at that however, they feel they're plenty good enough. Good players rarely think they are good enough. They always feel they could be doing better, doing more and such. There's even a study about this mentality. It may just be a study, but it fits really well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning...3Kruger_effect

Yeah Ispano, I do agree there, about not wanting to learn! Very good points you brought up, it is true, some people just don't wish to, and feel some of the harder content is impossible for them, or just don't enjoy it. And I do agree that there's a difference between people who refuse to learn, and others who do wish to yet find it harder than most (can see why someone might find that insulting as well). I just object to people on both sides of the fence giving others a hard time, stop bickering and get playing!

Indeed. I know someone on my server who cannot use one side of his body. So he can only play with one hand. Yet he does better than many others who CAN use both hands, because he puts for the effort to play well and compensate for it.

[Defteros]

you assume that people are bad, without knowing, you assume they dont awnt to put forth the effort without knowing if they actually factually dont do the best they can with what they know and have .. you generalize

you are kind of doing the same thing.
you generalize based on what you probably have seen while playing.
If I'm running a dungeon and a scholar doesn't use Protect&Stoneskin because "I don't have it"
if I'm running a dungeon and a whm NEVER uses Esuna or don't raises people because "there's the shortcut, use it"
if a dps completely ignores the aggro bar and spam AoEs and attacks ignoring completely the tank
if a tank takes ALL the AoEs from a boss, or can't keep aggro

then yes.
you are bad at what you are doing. and you are a bad player.
and I'm not talking about Sastasha/Tam-Tara or Halatali easy mode.

[micropanther7]

snip

You're right, one can never know what's going on, but if that person doesn't communicate at ALL or even try, or cuss you out... what can you do? Some people really really don't want to learn, they even turn off chat!! *raaaage* LOL they just wanna play like they're on their tod like they're not with anyone else, which is fine if you're solo but if you're in a team.... Which is kind of sucky for other people in the team I should imagine. This is why I don't think Ispano was generalising at all, I've seen it happen, and when I've tried to teach people myself, using auto-translate, in /s, /p cha, and still get ignored.. but yes, you quite correct that each situation is situational, and one shouldn't judge. But what would you do in a situation like that? When even emoting gets no response at all?

Takes me aaages to learn things, what I thought I couldn't do before I can do now, and more challenging it is, the better cos it makes me a better healer and I love that <3 anyways feel like this thread is getting derailed D: Endgame content should stay as it is... anyways some things will probably get nerfed at a later date because of expansions!

[Divine_Intervention]

I just completed Titan extreme last night, then went into garuda ex for some fun. She died quickly. As many infuriating, tear hours as was spent on these DON'T nerf them even more. I like my fights difficult when they say they're gonna be.

[stoxastic]

Yeah this game really isn't that hard. For the most part, each individual class is not really that difficult to play, and most of the game's difficulty lies within the game mechanics.

But these mechanics aren't extremely difficult either. You just have to see them a couple times and focus. I don't believe that a person who is genuinely trying to improve their game will wipe to the same mechanics over and over. It's not hard to move over a bit during a twister cast. You just need to know when its coming and focus, which neither things are hard to do. Study the fight when you aren't playing. DF it for practice, but if you genuinely put the effort into learning the fights then you really shouldn't be wiping 20+ times to the same mechanics unless you are under 12 years old or something.

There are many other games out there (DOTA, StarCraft, CounterStrike) that are much more difficult mechanically and require much more practice than FFXIV. If you put forth the effort, this game is easy. The hardest part of the game is not mastering the mechanics, it's finding 7 other people that can master it as well. I will chalk up "bad" players to having a lack of effort in mastering the mechanics/class as opposed to genuinely being unable to play this game at a high level.

Honestly, this is the same argument when students say they're "bad at math." No, you aren't. You just don't want to put the effort into learning it.