Simplicity over complexity, time to change.

[Velhart]

I am just laughing that FFXI/FFXIV 1.xx is brought upon as this greatness of balance. Please tell me how many years it took for Puppetmaster to be viable in any end game content, or how long it took to make Dragoon viable, or how Ranger became undesirable after their major nerf, or how Ninja became a completely different role from it's original intent, or how BLM/PLD were never invited to burn parties and had to solo their EXP post lv.55 (Aht Urghan era), or how Beastmaster was never used for anything besides solo content, or how RDM's dominated other jobs, or how SMN's were never invited to EXP parties unless there was no WHM to heal. Now to 1.xx! Stack a job on a boss, then win. BLM only for Garuda/Chimera, MNK only for Mizer, Lancer only for Ifrit.

Out of all the MMO's I have played in my years with them, FFXI/1.xx were definitely by far the worst balanced jobs in the game. The saddest part is that developers for FFXI never did anything unless it was something they were cornered to do. Ninja a once DPS job became a tank due to one little loophole in the system. At a player perspective, Ninja tanking was awesome. On the developer side, they should be embarrassed that happened. Developers today would of immediately fixed it to not be the case anymore. Don't want to hear the excuse of "Developers let us be more free with how we do these jobs." I can tell you right now, almost no MMO developer is in that mind set when creating a class. If a class goes out of it's way from it's original design to a great extent like Ninja, then it needs to be fixed before it is exploited too much. WoW may of had their own balancing issues, but at least they always were adjusting the balance every major patch to make everything viable. It was once every blue moon that the FFXI development team actually did something.

Now lets go to ARR! Name me one job that is considered not wanted in end game yet. Because I haven't found one. At worst the only segregation you might find is when people ask for BLM's only in Brayflox speed run parties. Desire to stack jobs is pretty much gone and the only thing people desire to stack are good/well geared players.

Rose tinted glasses folks. There is a lot of good you could bring from FFXI to this game, there were some great ideas that came from it that I believe would work (like a Nyzul Isle style dungeon with a light party). I wouldn't mind seeing some jobs return with a FFXIV take on it. The ideas I hear in here are just outdated and extremely archaic just for the sake of so called "complexity". I think Hunts itself shows pretty well how archaic elements from a previous game don't work well without adding modern touches to it. This is from someone who has a strong preference for retro style games and played and loved FFXI from 2003-2010.

On the argument of 1.xx looked better graphically. Yes I can agree on that. However, you do know that intensity on the graphics was one of the reasons that 1.xx failed right? By doing that, it cost a lot in return like server instability and insane requirements to just run it at mediocre settings on your PC. Whats the point of a game looking that pretty when the game play suffers for it? ARR is able to make the game look good and keep things stable. Being smart and using other practical effects to make things look more fleshed out. ARR is still one of the best looking MMO's out there, and does not suffer for it like 1.xx did. I mean, one pot in 1.xx had just as many pixels as a NPC did...

On terms of difficulty between FFXI and ARR. Both have their hard moments. ARR has the Coils and Savage, and AV/PW for FFXI. They both had their difficulties in their own way. ARR has the harder fights, but in doing so they increased their accessibility. FFXI content if your party died, the consequences were more severe. In that game if you lose in a BCNM or KSNM, you pretty much had to go back out and collect all the items again and then you could try the fight again. FFXI used severe consequences to create longevity in the content. So it boils down to preference in taste here. Its more understandable though if you go the ARR route if you are trying to appeal to both casual and hardcore players.

I am going to get pitchforks hurled towards me for saying this, but I am glad they decided to use WoW as a blueprint to create this game. It was I was hoping FFXIV 1.xx was going to be before it came out and it did become what I want in ARR for the most part. Trying too hard to be original is not always a good thing *stares at 1.xx* unless you have something you know will work.

[Kazama]

Snip

*Lights torch and hurls pitchfork at Velhart*

Actually I agree with a lot of what you said. I don't want people to think I'm saying roll back to 1.x or make this FFXI-2. Both of those games were riddled with issues of their own flavor. What I do think can and should be brought over aren't defining features either. They basically boil down to this: Horizontal gear progression and alternate stat paths to open up antiquated content, some open world danger (Every other MMO has this), some endgame that carries consequence for failure (BCNM) and the same with the story missions (PM Missions). I think every suggestion there would be beneficial for both aisles of this debate.

I've always been an advocate for NMs and in 1.x they solved the XI problem. Then they added hunts in ARR and completely broke it again. I don't think hunts are an archaic feature because what they did is add a content that gives a generic reward that everyone and their mom wants. Think about it, Glamours, housing and Chocobo items for the casual/cosmetic crowd. Relic gear for those catching up to endgame. Sands and oils for the progression/hardcore crowd and money for everyone? It was a massive oversight not anticipating that something added for everyone would get overrun and abused and they are taking a ton of public heat for it. They need to stop adding generic farming content and add a little specificity to it. People always bash the "Collect 10 rat pelts" type of quests and for good reason, but that's basically what we have on a large scale, instead it's "collect XXX Tomestones" then do it again.

One of the larger issues here is that they keep generalizing every single piece of content to make it both accessible and desirable to everyone. When that happens it trivializes all of the content instead of one small aspect.

The one thing I will criticize though is your comparison of Coils (Savage is pointless) to AV/PW in XI which were ultra endgame and also not launch content. Coils vs. maybe Dynamis? Even that required something like 500k pop item, was 18 man, timed and hard for a lot of people, dropped gear that was viable from 2003 all the way to 2010 and even included a weekly lockout. That's just one comparison that was available at NA launch. There are at least 10 other things that were on the level of coils and every single one of them posed just as much challenge and remained viable all the way until cap increase.

I don't mind that they made XIV follow the WoW formula, many Korean MMOs did the same yet still managed to provide a game with much more depth and longevity. If SE weren't completely attached to the subscription model FFXIV would already be free to play. Out of 140 FC members about 1/4 haven't logged in in over a month, 1/4 in 2-3 weeks and the remainder only login 1-2 days a week and the most of them are comprised of FC statics, officers and newer players. Those don't include people who actually said they were leaving, left the FC and quit the game. This is after many left to try ESO and Wildstar and most of them quit those already, a lot of people are giving up on MMOs all together and if FFXIV's expansion doesn't address a lot of things it's looking like I might as well.

[Velhart]

*Lights torch and hurls pitchfork at Velhart*

Actually I agree with a lot of what you said. I don't want people to think I'm saying roll back to 1.x or make this FFXI-2. Both of those games were riddled with issues of their own flavor. What I do think can and should be brought over aren't defining features either. They basically boil down to this: Horizontal gear progression and alternate stat paths to open up antiquated content, some open world danger (Every other MMO has this), some endgame that carries consequence for failure (BCNM) and the same with the story missions (PM Missions). I think every suggestion there would be beneficial for both aisles of this debate.

Not sure if it is something you are wanting, but ARR already kind of has a horizontal system. One patch offering the new tier of content (vertical), then the next patch offering more content to obtain that said tier content (horizontal).

I've always been an advocate for NMs and in 1.x they solved the XI problem. Then they added hunts in ARR and completely broke it again. I don't think hunts are an archaic feature because what they did is add a content that gives a generic reward that everyone and their mom wants. Think about it, Glamours, housing and Chocobo items for the casual/cosmetic crowd. Relic gear for those catching up to endgame. Sands and oils for the progression/hardcore crowd and money for everyone? It was a massive oversight not anticipating that something added for everyone would get overrun and abused and they are taking a ton of public heat for it. They need to stop adding generic farming content and add a little specificity to it. People always bash the "Collect 10 rat pelts" type of quests and for good reason, but that's basically what we have on a large scale, instead it's "collect XXX Tomestones" then do it again.

Sorry, I wasn't clear on what I meant. I meant releasing the NM system as it is without going through modern set ups and testing to make sure it isn't a chaotic mess it is right now. The system as it is right now is a archaic system, but it can be improved. It isn't completely archaic.

The one thing I will criticize though is your comparison of Coils (Savage is pointless) to AV/PW in XI which were ultra endgame and also not launch content. Coils vs. maybe Dynamis? Even that required something like 500k pop item, was 18 man, timed and hard for a lot of people, dropped gear that was viable from 2003 all the way to 2010 and even included a weekly lockout. That's just one comparison that was available at NA launch. There are at least 10 other things that were on the level of coils and every single one of them posed just as much challenge and remained viable all the way until cap increase.

Was more for the sake of example. Dynamis is a more comparable event to raids. However, imagine how long some content in FFXI would be if you could of just kept hitting a DF button to keep going in and trying till you win without the consequence of Level Downs and having to gather the items. FFXI was difficult in that you needed to be highly prepared to take on content, while FFXIV you learn to overcome the content by constantly practicing till you get the flow of the pattern. Difficulty in general can be given in various forms and I don't exactly like to compare the two because they both approach it differently.

I don't mind that they made XIV follow the WoW formula, many Korean MMOs did the same yet still managed to provide a game with much more depth and longevity. If SE weren't completely attached to the subscription model FFXIV would already be free to play. Out of 140 FC members about 1/4 haven't logged in in over a month, 1/4 in 2-3 weeks and the remainder only login 1-2 days a week and the most of them are comprised of FC statics, officers and newer players. Those don't include people who actually said they were leaving, left the FC and quit the game. This is after many left to try ESO and Wildstar and most of them quit those already, a lot of people are giving up on MMOs all together and if FFXIV's expansion doesn't address a lot of things it's looking like I might as well.

That is MMO's in general for you. There is not one game (despite using WoW as a blueprint or not) that people won't play for just a few months then go straight to the next thing. ARR is no exception to this and the development team are fully aware that the numbers would drop after a few months to a more steady pace. Most developers for MMO's anticipate that. Sorry to see that your FC isn't as active, but FC's i'm in or ones I interact with are still going very strong and active.

It isn't to say that ARR is perfect, I have a ton of issues and gripes with it. My main concern with many in here is they want to just tear down the foundation and start over again. It simply isn't happening unless it is proven that the said system is broken. Should be offering feedback to improve on what is there and how to make it a better experience for everyone. Just look on how much has been improved and implemented just from 2.0 to 2.3. Can't wait to see the progress the team has made by 3.0.

[Sonofbaldo]

Not gonna happen until more accounts are purged from boredom. SE seems to refuse to list an amount of active subscriptions so that could be telling. Though it's not like it takes that many subs to make an MMO profitable.

But hey, the game is already mass discounted. I bought mine for like 90% off on the Playstation Network and they're already introducing Refer A Friend Rewards so the influx of new subs must have already died down suggesting word of mouth is not good.

Frankly I'm not surprised. A casual gamer can complete this game as it stands right now in under 2 months. There's no staying power beyond that at the moment. It seems a lot may be riding on this expansion but I'm banking on it being more of the same. So I'm guessing the game will continue to bleed subs with little influx to counter the bleeding.

[Velhart]

Not gonna happen until more accounts are purged from boredom. SE seems to refuse to list an amount of active subscriptions so that could be telling. Though it's not like it takes that many subs to make an MMO profitable.

But hey, the game is already mass discounted. I bought mine for like 90% off on the Playstation Network and they're already introducing Refer A Friend Rewards so the influx of new subs must have already died down suggesting word of mouth is not good.

Frankly I'm not surprised. A casual gamer can complete this game as it stands right now in under 2 months. There's no staying power beyond that at the moment. It seems a lot may be riding on this expansion but I'm banking on it being more of the same.

Its a common thing with major MMO's. WoW even at it's pinnacle was still using discounts and free trials to get people in. Major sales usually happen at launches or when an expansion is released. In the in between time, they need to use various methods to get that small amount in. It works pretty well actually, probably one of the smaller reasons that WoW got to such it state it did.

[Hiruke]

The main problem with FFXIV: ARR is that the game seems to be designed with 2 conflicting visions in mind, with no particular thought on how to reconcile the two:

1) We need the ultra casuals.
2) We need the super hardcore.

Things implemented because of 1):

- Combat system pretty shallow and most monsters easily defeated solo with minimal effort, to prevent combat from becoming tedious over time because of difficulty.
- Game filled with fluff like FATEs that have essentially zero challenge. Quality over quantity all the way. Boring.
- No DPS meters implemented to prevent "inciting conflict between players".
- Unable to send tells in dungeons to "prevent harassment".
- Super long, grindy quests implemented to give people who can't clear Coil something to do. Unfortunately, even the casuals hate stuff like atma/animus/novus.
- Echo buffs implemented to allow "differently skilled" players to reach the current tier of content, by nerfing the old content into the ground. Unfortunately, if these players are unable to clear the old content with vastly superior gear (certainly, there was no access to i100/i110 gear for casuals back in the days of Titan HM or even EX), certainly they have NO CHANCE on current contents - goal here is another attempt to make hardcores carry the casuals? Or simply poorly thought out progression pathing?
- Sound and scent agro removed in favor of only using sight agro because "it may be confusing for players". Dev team apprently thinks everyone is crazy stupid? Plus it's all pointless because all field monsters are easily solo'd if of appropriate level.
- Gatherers protected from any monsters by stealth moves, making gathering super easy. As a result, nothing a gatherer can gather is of any real value, until maybe you get into 2 star gathers. 1 star and 2 star nodes only able to be tapped once an hour to artificially limit supply, which seems to have no real effect - everything becomes worthless super quickly anyway.
- Many other uninteresting nerfs to all content across the board to make it so easy (boring) that anyone can do it with zero thought/effort. I'm looking at you, nearly everything (not just FATEs).

Things implemented because of 2):

- Since combat system is shallow, nearly ALL endgame contant is driven purely by mechanics, mostly a plethora of endgame mechanics. Ironically, this makes the game SUPER tedious.
- Savage Coil implemented for the 1%.
- Content with tight DPS checks implemented, requiring a good understand of your role, with no in-game method of checking your performance so you know how to improve or if other people are holding you back, likely inciting all kinds of conflicts in PFs where people have no idea who the awful dps is.
- Content requiring great communication implemented. Since you can't send tells in instances, players are forced to publicly call each other out in party chat, making every suggestion a confrontation.
- 1% drop rates implemented on many vanity items, such as mirrors of the whorl, primal mounts, various minions. Presumably a thinly veiled effort to force hardcores to handhold casuals through content in an effort to get themselves the vanity item, since you'll have to push literally hundreds or THOUSANDS of wins to get the item you want.
- Consciously designed fights to become more punishing if you go outside the script, such as when you push more dps than the fight was designed. To "keep folks from getting bored of content they've been clearing for weeks". Unfortunately, this not only makes fights even more tedious for hardcores, it also defeats the purpose of the Echo buff for casuals and makes content even more challenging as phases are pushed all over the place. Casuals couldn't beat it without Echo, so certainly they won't be able to deal with odd phase shifts on top of all the instant kill mechanics.

---

Personally, I miss things from FFXI like gathering being difficult, due to combat challenge. Some of the most valuable ores were mined in super dangerous areas. You might get killed. Not everyone mined it, because it was dangerous. In this game, gathering points are purely loot pinata.

I also miss (from 1.0, though FFXI had it also) difficult open world monsters. Where you couldn't just stream roll everything. It was also fun that different things had different agro types. Did you know in 1.0 that some monsters detected by scent? And that their scent radius was reduced in the rain? Or you could throw them off your trail by running through a body of water? In 1.0, Castrums were crazy dangerous, which made sense since the empire was our huge enemy. Now you can roll into Castrums solo and wreck the whole thing. Makes you wonder how come the imperials haven't packed up and gone home.

If you really want both casuals and hardcores, you should do one of two things (or both):

- Make content specifically for casuals, and different content for hardcores. This can be as simple as tiering every raid. Have your normal Second Coil, then also your EASY Second Coil. EASY Second Coil drops either nothing, or worse gear, but lets you progress dat story, whereas the NORMAL or SAVAGE Second Coil gets you good gear.

- Do more like what FFXI did: Large raids, that a handful of competents can carry a team full of "differently skilled" players. Great example: Dynamis. You really only needed around 3-6 really good people for Dynamis. As long as everyone else followed their instructions, you were golden. And that content scaled up to 64 people. 6 hardcores carrying 58 casuals is more realistic than pushing casuals through punishing 8 man content where a single mistake costs you the run.

I'm not really sure why everything in the game has to be pathetically easy. I mean, I know it's to "create broad appeal", but I find this way of thinking to be pretty insulting. Even if the game is a little difficult here and there, doesn't mean no one will play it. Your average casual can certainly handle more than what FATEs throw at them, and it's certainly super unfair of you to raise them on trash content like FATEs and then expect them to be able to challenge Primals. What did you do to prepare them for the challenging endgame content? Nothing? I wonder how many will quit thinking it's a fluff game, when they suddenly hit the brick wall that is endgame (in comparison to other contents).

Yoshida has even stated that they are now pushing back the introduction of the "hybrid" (support?) role until sometime after 3.0 (IF EVER), because he wants to "keep it simple" for new players who might be joining at the time of the expansion, even though the entire game was designed with this additional role in mind. Apparently Yoshida thinks you all ust can't handle any kind of difficulty, so he'll just keep jacking up that Echo buff until even the worst players can faceroll everything forever. Enjoy?

[Merylx]

Content requiring great communication implemented. Since you can't send tells in instances, players are forced to publicly call each other out in party chat, making every suggestion a confrontation.

I'm still, after many months, unable to comprehend this. Can someone please enlighten me as to why we still can't send tells during instances? I cannot, for the life of me, find a logical explanation as to why this was even implemented in the first place. We're able to freely talk to people via LS + FC during instances, yet we're unable to send tells...

[Azurak]

Hiruke pretty much summed up why I hate this game and Yoshi. Think about it. He wants to get as many people playing his game so he makes more money for the company. Even if it means making a game that is pathetically easy because he is trying to attract people new to gaming. As a result, the game is an insult to anyone who is familiar with MMOs.

[Giyari]

I remember in beta, the level 15 main story fight, was tough as nails. It took me a while to beat it, but when I did I got a sense of satisfaction.

And now, you could just stand there and wail on it. I knew then, the game was gonna be a cake walk.

I also revall CT was going to be tougher but was toned down.

When did gamers become a bunch of children that need their hand held?

[Estevo]

I really hope that Yoshida changes his mind on the casual catering, making ARR great won't have to do with what crowd you cater to. If you make a truly good game, anybody will find the time to play it, simple as that.