Simplicity over complexity, time to change.

[Velhart]

I am just laughing that FFXI/FFXIV 1.xx is brought upon as this greatness of balance. Please tell me how many years it took for Puppetmaster to be viable in any end game content, or how long it took to make Dragoon viable, or how Ranger became undesirable after their major nerf, or how Ninja became a completely different role from it's original intent, or how BLM/PLD were never invited to burn parties and had to solo their EXP post lv.55 (Aht Urghan era), or how Beastmaster was never used for anything besides solo content, or how RDM's dominated other jobs, or how SMN's were never invited to EXP parties unless there was no WHM to heal. Now to 1.xx! Stack a job on a boss, then win. BLM only for Garuda/Chimera, MNK only for Mizer, Lancer only for Ifrit.

Out of all the MMO's I have played in my years with them, FFXI/1.xx were definitely by far the worst balanced jobs in the game. The saddest part is that developers for FFXI never did anything unless it was something they were cornered to do. Ninja a once DPS job became a tank due to one little loophole in the system. At a player perspective, Ninja tanking was awesome. On the developer side, they should be embarrassed that happened. Developers today would of immediately fixed it to not be the case anymore. Don't want to hear the excuse of "Developers let us be more free with how we do these jobs." I can tell you right now, almost no MMO developer is in that mind set when creating a class. If a class goes out of it's way from it's original design to a great extent like Ninja, then it needs to be fixed before it is exploited too much. WoW may of had their own balancing issues, but at least they always were adjusting the balance every major patch to make everything viable. It was once every blue moon that the FFXI development team actually did something.

Now lets go to ARR! Name me one job that is considered not wanted in end game yet. Because I haven't found one. At worst the only segregation you might find is when people ask for BLM's only in Brayflox speed run parties. Desire to stack jobs is pretty much gone and the only thing people desire to stack are good/well geared players.

Rose tinted glasses folks. There is a lot of good you could bring from FFXI to this game, there were some great ideas that came from it that I believe would work (like a Nyzul Isle style dungeon with a light party). I wouldn't mind seeing some jobs return with a FFXIV take on it. The ideas I hear in here are just outdated and extremely archaic just for the sake of so called "complexity". I think Hunts itself shows pretty well how archaic elements from a previous game don't work well without adding modern touches to it. This is from someone who has a strong preference for retro style games and played and loved FFXI from 2003-2010.

On the argument of 1.xx looked better graphically. Yes I can agree on that. However, you do know that intensity on the graphics was one of the reasons that 1.xx failed right? By doing that, it cost a lot in return like server instability and insane requirements to just run it at mediocre settings on your PC. Whats the point of a game looking that pretty when the game play suffers for it? ARR is able to make the game look good and keep things stable. Being smart and using other practical effects to make things look more fleshed out. ARR is still one of the best looking MMO's out there, and does not suffer for it like 1.xx did. I mean, one pot in 1.xx had just as many pixels as a NPC did...

On terms of difficulty between FFXI and ARR. Both have their hard moments. ARR has the Coils and Savage, and AV/PW for FFXI. They both had their difficulties in their own way. ARR has the harder fights, but in doing so they increased their accessibility. FFXI content if your party died, the consequences were more severe. In that game if you lose in a BCNM or KSNM, you pretty much had to go back out and collect all the items again and then you could try the fight again. FFXI used severe consequences to create longevity in the content. So it boils down to preference in taste here. Its more understandable though if you go the ARR route if you are trying to appeal to both casual and hardcore players.

I am going to get pitchforks hurled towards me for saying this, but I am glad they decided to use WoW as a blueprint to create this game. It was I was hoping FFXIV 1.xx was going to be before it came out and it did become what I want in ARR for the most part. Trying too hard to be original is not always a good thing *stares at 1.xx* unless you have something you know will work.

[Kazama]

Snip

*Lights torch and hurls pitchfork at Velhart*

Actually I agree with a lot of what you said. I don't want people to think I'm saying roll back to 1.x or make this FFXI-2. Both of those games were riddled with issues of their own flavor. What I do think can and should be brought over aren't defining features either. They basically boil down to this: Horizontal gear progression and alternate stat paths to open up antiquated content, some open world danger (Every other MMO has this), some endgame that carries consequence for failure (BCNM) and the same with the story missions (PM Missions). I think every suggestion there would be beneficial for both aisles of this debate.

I've always been an advocate for NMs and in 1.x they solved the XI problem. Then they added hunts in ARR and completely broke it again. I don't think hunts are an archaic feature because what they did is add a content that gives a generic reward that everyone and their mom wants. Think about it, Glamours, housing and Chocobo items for the casual/cosmetic crowd. Relic gear for those catching up to endgame. Sands and oils for the progression/hardcore crowd and money for everyone? It was a massive oversight not anticipating that something added for everyone would get overrun and abused and they are taking a ton of public heat for it. They need to stop adding generic farming content and add a little specificity to it. People always bash the "Collect 10 rat pelts" type of quests and for good reason, but that's basically what we have on a large scale, instead it's "collect XXX Tomestones" then do it again.

One of the larger issues here is that they keep generalizing every single piece of content to make it both accessible and desirable to everyone. When that happens it trivializes all of the content instead of one small aspect.

The one thing I will criticize though is your comparison of Coils (Savage is pointless) to AV/PW in XI which were ultra endgame and also not launch content. Coils vs. maybe Dynamis? Even that required something like 500k pop item, was 18 man, timed and hard for a lot of people, dropped gear that was viable from 2003 all the way to 2010 and even included a weekly lockout. That's just one comparison that was available at NA launch. There are at least 10 other things that were on the level of coils and every single one of them posed just as much challenge and remained viable all the way until cap increase.

I don't mind that they made XIV follow the WoW formula, many Korean MMOs did the same yet still managed to provide a game with much more depth and longevity. If SE weren't completely attached to the subscription model FFXIV would already be free to play. Out of 140 FC members about 1/4 haven't logged in in over a month, 1/4 in 2-3 weeks and the remainder only login 1-2 days a week and the most of them are comprised of FC statics, officers and newer players. Those don't include people who actually said they were leaving, left the FC and quit the game. This is after many left to try ESO and Wildstar and most of them quit those already, a lot of people are giving up on MMOs all together and if FFXIV's expansion doesn't address a lot of things it's looking like I might as well.

[Velhart]

*Lights torch and hurls pitchfork at Velhart*

Actually I agree with a lot of what you said. I don't want people to think I'm saying roll back to 1.x or make this FFXI-2. Both of those games were riddled with issues of their own flavor. What I do think can and should be brought over aren't defining features either. They basically boil down to this: Horizontal gear progression and alternate stat paths to open up antiquated content, some open world danger (Every other MMO has this), some endgame that carries consequence for failure (BCNM) and the same with the story missions (PM Missions). I think every suggestion there would be beneficial for both aisles of this debate.

Not sure if it is something you are wanting, but ARR already kind of has a horizontal system. One patch offering the new tier of content (vertical), then the next patch offering more content to obtain that said tier content (horizontal).

I've always been an advocate for NMs and in 1.x they solved the XI problem. Then they added hunts in ARR and completely broke it again. I don't think hunts are an archaic feature because what they did is add a content that gives a generic reward that everyone and their mom wants. Think about it, Glamours, housing and Chocobo items for the casual/cosmetic crowd. Relic gear for those catching up to endgame. Sands and oils for the progression/hardcore crowd and money for everyone? It was a massive oversight not anticipating that something added for everyone would get overrun and abused and they are taking a ton of public heat for it. They need to stop adding generic farming content and add a little specificity to it. People always bash the "Collect 10 rat pelts" type of quests and for good reason, but that's basically what we have on a large scale, instead it's "collect XXX Tomestones" then do it again.

Sorry, I wasn't clear on what I meant. I meant releasing the NM system as it is without going through modern set ups and testing to make sure it isn't a chaotic mess it is right now. The system as it is right now is a archaic system, but it can be improved. It isn't completely archaic.

The one thing I will criticize though is your comparison of Coils (Savage is pointless) to AV/PW in XI which were ultra endgame and also not launch content. Coils vs. maybe Dynamis? Even that required something like 500k pop item, was 18 man, timed and hard for a lot of people, dropped gear that was viable from 2003 all the way to 2010 and even included a weekly lockout. That's just one comparison that was available at NA launch. There are at least 10 other things that were on the level of coils and every single one of them posed just as much challenge and remained viable all the way until cap increase.

Was more for the sake of example. Dynamis is a more comparable event to raids. However, imagine how long some content in FFXI would be if you could of just kept hitting a DF button to keep going in and trying till you win without the consequence of Level Downs and having to gather the items. FFXI was difficult in that you needed to be highly prepared to take on content, while FFXIV you learn to overcome the content by constantly practicing till you get the flow of the pattern. Difficulty in general can be given in various forms and I don't exactly like to compare the two because they both approach it differently.

I don't mind that they made XIV follow the WoW formula, many Korean MMOs did the same yet still managed to provide a game with much more depth and longevity. If SE weren't completely attached to the subscription model FFXIV would already be free to play. Out of 140 FC members about 1/4 haven't logged in in over a month, 1/4 in 2-3 weeks and the remainder only login 1-2 days a week and the most of them are comprised of FC statics, officers and newer players. Those don't include people who actually said they were leaving, left the FC and quit the game. This is after many left to try ESO and Wildstar and most of them quit those already, a lot of people are giving up on MMOs all together and if FFXIV's expansion doesn't address a lot of things it's looking like I might as well.

That is MMO's in general for you. There is not one game (despite using WoW as a blueprint or not) that people won't play for just a few months then go straight to the next thing. ARR is no exception to this and the development team are fully aware that the numbers would drop after a few months to a more steady pace. Most developers for MMO's anticipate that. Sorry to see that your FC isn't as active, but FC's i'm in or ones I interact with are still going very strong and active.

It isn't to say that ARR is perfect, I have a ton of issues and gripes with it. My main concern with many in here is they want to just tear down the foundation and start over again. It simply isn't happening unless it is proven that the said system is broken. Should be offering feedback to improve on what is there and how to make it a better experience for everyone. Just look on how much has been improved and implemented just from 2.0 to 2.3. Can't wait to see the progress the team has made by 3.0.

[Kazama]

Not sure if it is something you are wanting, but ARR already kind of has a horizontal system. One patch offering the new tier of content (vertical), then the next patch offering more content to obtain that said tier content (horizontal)

By that logic 2.2 offers i110 gear and 2.3 should have also been i110 but it's not. Ramuh is i100 as is Syrcus Tower. Regardless, it doesn't matter because 2.4 will release i115 or i120 causing us to completely re-gear again. In a horizontal progression the system doesn't have you replacing every piece of gear every 3 months. Instead, it may replace a few or a single piece if even. It could even offer no new gear and instead just open up a long quest arc or potentially add new skills along with the other content they provide. Basically, this vertical method they are using requires them to add one new raid every patch and that just isn't sustainable or engaging to most veteran players as it immediately invalidates everything prior to it even for new players. Same with the token system, I just leveled a second account yet I completely skipped CT, Dungeons, First coils and Myth gear almost entirely.

Was more for the sake of example. Dynamis is a more comparable event to raids. However, imagine how long some content in FFXI would be if you could of just kept hitting a DF button to keep going in and trying till you win without the consequence of Level Downs and having to gather the items. FFXI was difficult in that you needed to be highly prepared to take on content, while FFXIV you learn to overcome the content by constantly practicing till you get the flow of the pattern. Difficulty in general can be given in various forms and I don't exactly like to compare the two because they both approach it differently.

Yeah I knew exactly where you were coming from. XI added challenge and difficulty by adding ramifications for failing. Either you had a time limit and a lockout or it required an accumulated entry and if you failed you had to wait or go farm more pop/entry items. I love that method of spacing out content personally. I know this isn't everyone's cup-o-tea, all I am suggesting is a happy medium where it's not endlessly bashing your head against a fight until you win only to have it become antiquated 3 months later.

That is MMO's in general for you. There is not one game (despite using WoW as a blueprint or not) that people won't play for just a few months then go straight to the next thing. ARR is no exception to this and the development team are fully aware that the numbers would drop after a few months to a more steady pace. Most developers for MMO's anticipate that. Sorry to see that your FC isn't as active, but FC's i'm in or ones I interact with are still going very strong and active.

It's one thing to anticipate a hype loss early on in a game sure but to blatantly ignore a large chunk of an already dedicate fanbase is another. It's pretty universally known that customer retention is among the most critical factors in a service driven model yet SE is intent on continuing to draw in more numbers at the cost of existing ones. Most likely to capitalize on the retail cost of the game and as many simultaneous subs as possible for his bosses to see black on their 2014 earnings. Then maybe once they have saturated the market and are forced to change to a retention model we might see more things the players ask for.

Hmm... I really don't see many original Convction members on anymore. At least not the ones I knew from 1.0, maybe they hide? Our FC isn't AS active but it is still active, it's got a lot of very long term XI/XIV 1.x players holding it up still. But, the word around the cooler, many of us are reserving final judgement for 3.0 and if it doesn't resolve at least some of the linearity and overly excessive hand holding it very well may be duty complete for good.