Simplicity over complexity, time to change.

[Redemption]

That's like saying that the world has stagnated because wheels have been round for hundreds of years.

On the other hand, if we went back to FFXI's standards, we'd get something worse than stagnation, we'd get regression.

No it wouldn't, WoW is not an 'evolution' of FFXI it is a completely different path entirely. An EVOLUTION of FFXI's mechanics would be finding a way to keep the MMO an online world but remove some of the problems, WoW instead chooses not to be an online world entirely but more of an online meta-game about rolling through gear progression with friends.

To make sure the point is clear, I do not believe FFXI used "outdated" systems but rather was a different kind of game. Some people like the WoW style gameish style, thats fine and there are lots of mmos like that (its the most common type of mmo around today) but its not what everyone likes or wants.

[Gilthas]

No it wouldn't, WoW is not an 'evolution' of FFXI it is a completely different path entirely. An EVOLUTION of FFXI's mechanics would be finding a way to keep the MMO an online world but remove some of the problems, WoW instead chooses not to be an online world entirely but more of an online meta-game about rolling through gear progression with friends.

Just because you don't like something doesn't mean that you can label it as something else and pretend it's not an evolution of the genre.

EDIT: And to make my point clear, yes, FFXI did use a lot of outdated systems because the ye ol' MMO's were based on making you waste as much time as possible in order to get stuff done so content would last longer and you'd keep on paying monthly fees. Hence why teleports were so limited, gear had severe lockouts that puts FFXIV to shame, why the vast majority of content required groups, etc, etc.

[Dannythm]

Just because you don't like something doesn't mean that you can label it as something else and pretend it's not an evolution of the genre.

And you can't do the same thing.

Evolution works because it takes many different paths, and MMO's have not been evolving since 2004 because 99% of them just follow the same path. Nobody tried to evolve the MMO concept of XI, now we are seeing some other stuff with star citizen and racing mmo's and so on, but in the terms of MMO-RPG, there has not been a single evolution in the genre on a design standpoint since 1.0 failed, and it was the first since 2004.

Gimmicks and polish, we've seen a lot, but real improvements and new directions and evolution? none at all.

[Redemption]

Just because you don't like something doesn't mean that you can label it as something else and pretend it's not an evolution of the genre.

EDIT: And to make my point clear, yes, FFXI did use a lot of outdated systems because the ye ol' MMO's were based on making you waste as much time as possible in order to get stuff done so content would last longer and you'd keep on paying monthly fees. Hence why teleports were so limited, gear had severe lockouts that puts FFXIV to shame, why the vast majority of content required groups, etc, etc.

Except that stuff also serves another purpose? You're so full of crap its not even funny. Re-examine my example, FFXI invested a lot of effort into making elements of the world feel realistic and alive and worldly. Removing things just because they take time can have a detrimental effect on that purpose and doing so is the opposite of an evolution imo. IF you insist that the two are not separate then WoW is the regression as it stripped away things that made mmos great and added in cheesy throwaway addiction forming content instead.

Or you know... it was built around a virtual world that people would explore and exist in. If the point was to play content longer, then FFXI wouldn't have airships, ferries, and the crag teleports, which barring the crags, make sense in a virtual world which would have some sort of transportation. The crags even were given a deep lore behind the reasoning for their existence, and were spread out enough that it let you move across the world without too much trouble, but still made players actually move through it like a person living in Vana'diel would have to. The old games were based on the roots of RPGs which was based on DnD, a game where you take the role of an adventurer in another world.

This.

[Gilthas]

Except that stuff also serves another purpose? You're so full of crap its not even funny. Re-examine my example, FFXI invested a lot of effort into making elements of the world feel realistic and alive and worldly. Removing things just because they take time can have a detrimental effect on that purpose and doing so is the opposite of an evolution imo. IF you insist that the two are not separate then WoW is the regression as it stripped away things that made mmos great and added in cheesy throwaway addiction forming content instead.

Oh really? What exactly made FFXI's world more alive and worldly?

The lack of fast transportation? Well it is true that if I had to walk it would take me an hour to reach the nearest city.

Big areas that are sparsely populated with actual content? Well, it is true that in some areas of my country you can go tens of miles without seeing any other soul.

See, saying that something is more realistic isn't the same as saying that it's better.

Or you know... it was built around a virtual world that people would explore and exist in. If the point was to play content longer, then FFXI wouldn't have airships, ferries, and the crag teleports, which barring the crags, make sense in a virtual world which would have some sort of transportation. The crags even were given a deep lore behind the reasoning for their existence, and were spread out enough that it let you move across the world without too much trouble, but still made players actually move through it like a person living in Vana'diel would have to. The old games were based on the roots of RPGs which was based on DnD, a game where you take the role of an adventurer in another world.

You say that FFXI wasn't designed around making you waste your time and then use the existence of airships and ferries as proof of that? You do remember that these ran on strict timetables, forcing you to wait for them? The teleports were also few and required you to level WHM if you wanted to do them yourself. Don't say that crags had lore behind them when Aetherytes also have it.

But above all else: there is absolutely nothing stopping you from travelling through areas in FFXIV (I personally don't use teleports), so why are you so intent on taking away teleports from everyone?

Ironically enough XI has more depth to certain content systems and even WoW does...ARR kind of already regressed - People only see it "better than 1.0" more than anything because as an MMO in itself, it's nothing special, other MMOs have done similar systems better..especially in the itemization. Heck, the fact FFXI was an EQ Clone never crossed people minds as much as "x mmo is a WoW clone" because they had the creativity to at least do certain things differently, you know?

FFXI has how many years now? Because I started playing FFXI with CoP and I certainly don't see where these claims of more depth come from. Most examples of depth are nothing more than clutter. People didn't call FFXI an EQ Clone because calling games clones wasn't a thing back then. The gaming community has changed a lot in the past 10 years. Back then we didn't have all the whining that we have today.

[Redemption]

Oh really? What exactly made FFXI's world more alive and worldly?

The lack of fast transportation? Well it is true that if I had to walk it would take me an hour to reach the nearest city.

Big areas that are sparsely populated with actual content? Well, it is true that in some areas of my country you can go tens of miles without seeing any other soul.

See, saying that something is more realistic isn't the same as saying that it's better.

I feel like it is pointless to keep trying to explain this to some people so i'll keep it simple and leave it at that. Things like that, travel, having a journey for things and worldly elements like consistency in travel and not just being able to jump instantly to whatever location you want and mob behavior patterns and weather affects that matter; things like that have a SUBTLE but important influence on how you perceive the game you play. You can like whatever you want and thats perfectly ok. FFXI did some things, and even though you dont like it, they had an affect and an intent that is completely different from modern mmos.

Let me ask you this, why are you so hell bent on insisting that FFXI is outdated and not simply a different perspective on the genre? So far as I can tell, its just because you don't understand why things were as they were or just don't care about it. If that's the case, please reconsider your approach to it entirely because you are never going to convince myself and probably some others that the things done in final fantasy xi are invalid today (as they just aren't, theres no reason I can't be living in a virtual world today outside of its lack of popularity).

[Velhart]

snip

Funny thing about FFXI in my 2003-2010 campaign, everyone was finding ways to make the game as convenient as possible. Even to the point that someone would climb up the mountain and drop down to a spot for an ENM, then we all die next to the cliff, BLM tractors and raises us. People rather sit in town and shout for an hour for a Crag teleport instead of just running there. People try to work any loop holes they could to get past the obvious inconveniences. I constantly hear people complain that they wish boats and airships had an option to instant teleport you there. "Hey guys, I just missed the airship, gotta wait 15 minutes before we can start EXP'ing." Its all opinion if people liked this or not, but MMO's have evolved over the years for better or worse to cater to both hardcore and casual, not one way or the other.

[Redemption]

Funny thing about FFXI in my 2003-2010 campaign, everyone was finding ways to make the game as convenient as possible. Even to the point that someone would climb up the mountain and drop down to a spot for an ENM, then we all die next to the cliff, BLM tractors and raises us. People rather sit in town and shout for an hour for a Crag teleport instead of just running there. People try to work any loop holes they could to get past the obvious inconveniences. I constantly hear people complain that they wish boats and airships had an option to instant teleport you there. "Hey guys, I just missed the airship, gotta wait 15 minutes before we can start EXP'ing." Its all opinion if people liked this or not, but MMO's have evolved over the years for better or worse to cater to both hardcore and casual, not one way or the other.

I would actually argue that was part of the intrigue of it all. The world was set, it had its conventions and people would be efficient within those rules to get their way. I played FFXI pretty much until june of this year from NA launch (with some on and off), so I know full well how people would act and get around and do things. You'll find thats the same anywhere in games but I still would say that it has an effect over making the instant travel the norm.

And yet the big problem of your argument is and will always be that you don't need to waste a player's time to enhance the world for them. There is literally nothing preventing you from going down the slow road, only your own problems with seeing others around you on the highway.

Its not the amount of time that matters really, and its true that you can enhance the world with elements that don't take time (like the above rain affecting clothes example) but they're different elements so the ones that do take time are still lacking in the end its still a different experience than what some are seeking. Im going to make a note here, I personally have not suggested anything as a way to solve my issues with ffxiv in this thread except altering itemization. Would a lot of ffxi's systems fit here? Quite possibly not, if they were they would likely need to be adjusted to fit into the systems that are already in the game. To explain, FFXIV is already a relatively small world and with how the world is built removing teleports in 'current' zones wouldnt likely help. If they had say, a large frontier map with danger and no teleports in the future that might be interesting but its a striking contrast to what already is. Suffice to say as far as FFXIV goes, any adjustment would need to be made carefully and adjusted to fit the native landscape (game systems).

Yeah, for the most part the effect was annoying people.

With each post you seem to simply be making yourself out to be a closed minded and rude individual. Can nobody have an opinion that is not your own? I have tried quite hard to make sure my statements are regarding my own and likely some similar minded people's opinions and not making general blanket statements intending to insult your opinion on what is a good game.

[Magis]

You say that FFXI wasn't designed around making you waste your time and then use the existence of airships and ferries as proof of that? You do remember that these ran on strict timetables, forcing you to wait for them? The teleports were also few and required you to level WHM if you wanted to do them yourself. Don't say that crags had lore behind them when Aetherytes also have it.

Wow, almost like.... transportation would? Next you will tell me all shops aren't open 24/7.

On crags, it gives players utility and let's part of the world be run by the players (also the point of crafting). I didn't say teleports should 100% be gone (heck FFXI had em), rather that they should be used conservatively. The crags were the main focal point in two major expansion's story lines as oppose to atheryte having a small footnote somewhere on the lodestone. Also, even it's own lore is broken since Yoshi remove the anima system which would have been a nice compromise.

Well, as we have seen with Hunts, teleports are not in their vacuum, and have contributed heavily on breaking that portion of the game.

[Gilthas]

Wow, almost like.... transportation would? Next you will tell me all shops aren't open 24/7.
Which gives players utility and let's part of the world be run by the players (also the point of crafting). I didn't say teleports should 100% be gone (heck FFXI had em), rather that they should be used conservatively. The crags were the main focal point in two major expansion's story lines as oppose to atheryte having a small footnote somewhere on the lodestone. Also, even it's own lore is broken since Yoshi remove the anima system which would have been a nice compromise.

Well, as we have seen with Hunts, teleports are not in their vacuum, and have contributed heavily on breaking that portion of the game.

Sorry, but timetables making them realistic doesn't excuse the fact that they wasted a lot of your time. And no, the crags weren't a focal point of two major expansion stories, the focal points were the characters and the story behing them, the crags were just places you passed through.