Simplicity over complexity, time to change.

[Velhart]

What? I am quite sorry but that is an insane statement. Complexity 'adds' depth where done tastefully, even your Mario example the depth (I don't agree that mario is a game with a lot of depth) comes from situations that make your interactions more complex such as complicated jumping segments or enemies with complex mechanics) comes from complexity despite the game not being super complex. Simplification always results in 'limited' depth, the complexity of a system determines how much depth can be had from it. IGNORING THAT, if complexity was never a good thing then we would be playing games where we have no characters but would just be represented with a square instead because character art and 3d worlds is unnecessary complexity right? How about needing to move in combat? Don't need it, its another layer of complexity right? Don't have gear, levels, don't make people do anything because complex mechanics in any way are bad right?

Again, I am sorry but that is simply wrong.

We were talking about simplicity in the mechanics itself, not the entire game as a whole. Should read more carefully.

Can use this as a reference if you don't get it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVfzWpmyXXk

Being simple in the mechanics alone allows you more freedom to make what is around you more or less difficult. Relying on difficulty more through the mechanics itself is not proper balancing and not good game design if you are trying to appeal to a wider audience.

[Redemption]

We were talking about simplicity in the mechanics itself, not the entire game as a whole. Should read more carefully.

Can use this as a reference if you don't get it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVfzWpmyXXk

Being simple in the mechanics alone allows you more freedom to make what is around you more or less difficult. Relying on difficulty more through the mechanics itself is not proper balancing and not good game design if you are trying to appeal to a wider audience.

I get the idea and disagree. Heck the entire RPG genre works counter to your argument where complex stat systems and tatctical synergies are definitely part of the fun and are part of the mechanics of the games core function. I also do not care about wider audience appeal, so long as your game can make a good enough profit I think it better to focus your game rather than attempt to fit it to everyone (I am aware this runs counter to business thought but as a consumer I really do not care at all about other peoples profit margins and I am sure they do not count on me for that. Instead I prefer the approach of pursuing what I want and letting the people running the business figure out how to work that financially.) as that tends to result in mediocrity.

Extra Credits put it rather well when they said that "Depth is bought with Complexity, but Complexity also restricts Depth"

Or, think of Complexity as Spices, and Depth as Flavor. The proper type and amount of the former is can give a solid boost to the latter.

But careless, or excessive use of either Complexity or Spice can completely ruin an experience rather than enhance it.

Perhaps, but I don't think anyone here is asking for things to be complex without reason or rather I don't think people want complexity that does nothing. Suffice to say, the people supporting this thread do not think the complexity level is right yet.

We have 2 million already. Chinese release will adds 2 more. A successful MMO that is not suddenly dropped (i doubt SE will drop it) peak at around 5-6 years than steady decline to about 50% and than stagnation/slow drop until game becomes really outdated and closed.

The game does not have 2 million active subscribers -.- ... thats intentionally miss worded marketing stuff. The game has sold over 2 million copies but as far as active subscribers go it is somewhere over 500k and somewhere under 2 million.

[Renik]

We were talking about simplicity in the mechanics itself, not the entire game as a whole. Should read more carefully.

Maybe i lost something, but when i started this thread i was talking about the overall simplicity of this game, and while i used the word complexity what i wanted to say was indeed depth, in the end both come together.

Lets just say we are not talking about making the game more complex or the sake of it, just less simple, because anyone can see this game has a lot of potential, but it's actually hollow.

[Felessan]

Lets just say we are not talking about making the game more complex or the sake of it, just less simple, because anyone can see this game has a lot of potential, but it's actually hollow.

This actually amuses me how people that do nothing to push mechanics past "simple" accuse it that it's too hollow. Maybe try harder and at least pass through T5 before complaining about simplicity?
It's like you want to intentionally make game harder for everyone because you are bored and too lazy to actually do something, so you want game do it for you.

[Gilthas]

It's like you want to intentionally make game harder for everyone because you are bored and too lazy to actually do something, so you want game do it for you.

Not going to comment on the coil part, but this second part of the post basically sums up the "remove teleport" crowd's argument.

I actually had the same feelings towards allowing you to repair gear on any class. Changing to my crafter to repair gear did bring me more immersion, but now that that restriction is gone I don't do it anymore. Do I miss it? Nope.

Instead of asking for cumbersome mechanics I'd rather they satisfy my needs for crafter immersion by giving us more quests.

[Magis]

This actually amuses me how people that do nothing to push mechanics past "simple" accuse it that it's too hollow. Maybe try harder and at least pass through T5 before complaining about simplicity?
It's like you want to intentionally make game harder for everyone because you are bored and too lazy to actually do something, so you want game do it for you.

I have "pushed past T5", cleared T6, and our static is about to clear T7... the moves can be boiled down to "thing appears -> do thing". Most of it is either dodging, or just watching a mark and moving (or in case of blighted bouquet... not moving). Since the fight doesn't go beyond passively damaging the boss and adds, and doing whatever mark gimmick that flavor has... it really is simple. I can't say about T8 (though read about the Ballistic Missile move) and T9, but if they are different... 2 out of all the bosses in the game isn't much.

Best way to sum it up is: The boss mechanics may be "complex" (I use the word here lightly) but the actual combat and what our characters are doing isn't. The actual damage we do to the mob is a passive drain to it's HP as everyone is actually just dancing around doing the boss' mechanics. Heck, you can take the argument to the extreme, and just have the boss lose HP at a tick per second, strip our abilities, and keep the mechanics. It would be the same damn thing.

[Exstal]

I have "pushed past T5", cleared T6, and our static is about to clear T7... the moves can be boiled down to "thing appears -> do thing". Most of it is either dodging, or just watching a mark and moving (or in case of blighted bouquet... not moving). Since the fight doesn't go beyond passively damaging the boss and adds, and doing whatever mark gimmick that flavor has... it really is simple. I can't say about T8 (though read about the Ballistic Missile move) and T9, but if they are different... 2 out of all the bosses in the game isn't much.

Best way to sum it up is: The boss mechanics may be "complex" (I use the word here lightly) but the actual combat and what our characters are doing isn't. The actual damage we do to the mob is a passive drain to it's HP as everyone is actually just dancing around doing the boss' mechanics. Heck, you can take the argument to the extreme, and just have the boss lose HP at a tick per second, strip our abilities, and keep the mechanics. It would be the same damn thing.

The alternative is tank and spank with some minor mechanics. No mechanics is boring and heavy mechanics is a single player game.

Turns 3 & 4 are much of the same from turns 1 & 2. Just..far more punishing.

...and is nothing like the original FFXI? Like, I am sure that it has been repeated over and over yet people still say this like they thought up the most original rebuttal ever.

I'm unaware why people want to go back in time to ancient systems. I'm sure there is a game out there that follows that.

[Tupsi]

I'm unaware why people want to go back in time to ancient systems. I'm sure there is a game out there that follows that.

You're better off asking developers who continue to copy WoW (a 2004 game, XI was released only 2 years prior.)

[Dannythm]

Best way to sum it up is: The boss mechanics may be "complex" (I use the word here lightly) but the actual combat and what our characters are doing isn't. The actual damage we do to the mob is a passive drain to it's HP as everyone is actually just dancing around doing the boss' mechanics. Heck, you can take the argument to the extreme, and just have the boss lose HP at a tick per second, strip our abilities, and keep the mechanics. It would be the same damn thing.

... but I love Touhou and sumps!

[Azurak]

Heck, you can take the argument to the extreme, and just have the boss lose HP at a tick per second, strip our abilities, and keep the mechanics. It would be the same damn thing.

Yeah, after doing all the endgame stuff in XIV. I realize it is all the same thing. Each primal is nothing more than a pattern. Follow the pattern equals win. With more content, means more patterns to memorize. Yoshi really thinks this is fun?