Simplicity over complexity, time to change.

[Gramul]

All the ideas in this thread sounds awful (well the first page anyway)

Well, would you mind expanding on that? What are your thoughts and concerns on the approaches people would use in this thread?

[Zantetsuken]

Horizontal progressions sounds nice but it's a utopia. Someone will do the math, will find the best combination, and anybody who won't follow will be ignored/left behind.

Have players discovered the mathematically best character in Ultra Street Fighter IV? Is there a mathematically superior color in any recent release of Magic the Gathering? Where are mathematically best choices in DOTA2 or League of Legends, or Pokemon, or weapons in CoD, or Diablo Builds, or Starcraft factions, etc. etc. etc. ?

Have you ever played Dark Souls or Monster Hunter? What is the best weapon is in either of those games? In a properly developed horizontal system, all choices have advantages and disadvantages that require players must weigh in finding what best fits their play-style.

Those games are great games because they have DEPTH. As players become more skilled in the game, they discover more subtle aspects of each build. The variety of choices they offer the players means that those players will be constantly experimenting and working to find style that works best for them.

ARR, on the other hand, has no real decisions to make and no depth -- Every job performs mathematically the same as every other job in it's role. Only the appearances and the order of their rotations is different. Gear has a single stat: iLvl. Everything in ARR is equal and equally dull. ARR is a place where players won't have to think about anything while they play (Apparently, thinking=stress for today's mass market MMO demographic). The design philosophy of 'accessibility and no-stress' ensures that ARR will be on the same track for years to come.

Horizontal progression is hardly a utopia. It has be demonstrated to work effectively in many, MANY games. But it is more difficult/expensive to create, and it requires players to invest a bit into the game in order to get more out of it.

[Krr]

Have players discovered the mathematically best character in Ultra Street Fighter IV? Is there a mathematically superior color in any recent release of Magic the Gathering? Where are mathematically best choices in DOTA2 or League of Legends, or Pokemon even?

Have you ever played Dark Souls or Monster Hunter? What is the best weapon is in either of those games?

Dark Souls and Monster Hunter both feature vertical progression placed alongside horizontal progression. In fact, the only real difference in their progression structure from FFXIV is that the horizontal options have more breadth. There are even "BiS" sets for various weapons in MonHun for high levels of play. The rest of the games you mentioned are competitive multiplayer games in design formats that have nothing to do with MMORPGs.

And yes, we can prove the mathematically best characters in DOTA, LoL, Pokemon, and Street Fighter. Competitive scenes almost always feature option tier lists, which are actually derived from the real-life success rates of characters in various matchups. (DOTA and League, being team games, are a little more complex, mind you, but heroes still have matchups.)

(Right now, in Dark Souls 2, the best weapon is probably the Chaos Blade, with its high AR, wide swing arc, a pretty friggin' good thrust attack, and fast attack rate, that for some reason got buffed even though it was part of 'the meta' to begin with. Mathematically, it wins a hell of a lot of the time when evenly skilled opponents fight. Mathematically, this makes it a strictly better and stronger weapon than others in PvP. Don't get me started on the nonexistent choices in secondary options due to the massive tier gap for off-hand options.)

[Zantetsuken]

Dark Souls and Monster Hunter both feature vertical progression placed alongside horizontal progression. In fact, the only real difference in their progression structure from FFXIV is that the horizontal options have more breadth. The rest of the games you mentioned are competitive multiplayer games in design formats that have nothing to do with MMORPGs.

By 'more breadth' I assume you mean that DS and MH have 'a healthy amount' as opposed to FFXIV's 'none at all'

The list of games that I mentioned are proof that horizontal systems have been successfully implemented and are a now a standard feature in nearly every single modern genre. ARR's purely vertical system is hearkens back to those old arcade games from the 1980s

[Krr]

By 'more breadth' I assume you mean that DS and MH have 'a healthy amount' as opposed to FFXIV's 'none at all'

You're right, there is zero horizontal progression in FFXIV. Every time you get a piece of new gear the only thing that increases is its primary stat, and there are no secondary stats with questionable benefits and drawbacks that give us more than one option at each item level tier. The problem is, obviously, that these secondary stats need to be invented. For instance, how about one of these stats gives my attack more raw power, while the other lets me execute them faster, another makes them more accurate, and another still increases my chance to randomly do more damage with an attack?

Obviously, the problem is that these horizontals don't exist, and has nothing to do with their lack of balance.

(You really seriously have never analyzed good MonHun builds if you think that game is horizontal in the slightest. Each weapon has one of like, three pre-defined skill setups you work towards that are about as static as talent tree builds in WOTLK-era WoW - no one sane uses a Greatsword set that doesn't have Focus, Quick Draw, and as much +Power because that's the only way to make Greatswords good at what they do. And the difference between a Greatsword, and say, a Lance is no more 'horizontal' than the difference between a Paladin and a Dragoon.)

[Zantetsuken]

You're right, there is zero horizontal progression in FFXIV. Every time you get a piece of new gear the only thing that increases is its primary stat, and there are no secondary stats with questionable benefits and drawbacks that give us more than one option at each item level tier. The problem is, obviously, that these secondary stats need to be invented. For instance, how about one of these stats gives my attack more raw power, while the other lets me execute them faster, another makes them more accurate, and another still increases my chance to randomly do more damage with an attack?

Obviously, the problem is that these horizontals don't exist, and has nothing to do with their lack of balance.

No, the problem is that they DID exist in 1.23(as did an elemental wheel), but were stripped out of the game in ARR.

You really seriously have never analyzed good MonHun builds if you think that game is horizontal in the slightest. Each weapon has one of like, three pre-defined skill setups you work towards that are about as static as talent tree builds in WOTLK-era WoW - no one sane uses a Greatsword set that doesn't have Focus, Quick Draw, and as much +Power because that's the only way to make Greatswords good at what they do. And the difference between a Greatsword, and say, a Lance is no more 'horizontal' than the difference between a Paladin and a Dragoon.)

Those builds in MH are defined by the players rather than the game.

Furthermore, players can individually adapt builds to better fit their style. A Greatsword player has access to a VAST amount of skills to tailor as they please. Some may be better than others, but certain situations call for different skills and so there are even per-monster builds.

FFXIV is a one-size-fits-all styem. Every job/weapon/armor/must be equally viable in all circumstances.

In a way, I don't blame the devs much for the gimmicky endgame fights, it's the only way to make the game appear interesting, given the boring growth system they appear to be handcuffed to.

[Renik]

snip

Our opinions are extremely opposite then, i don't think i can convince you, just gonna say this simplicity kills the game for me as well, there are things that can be inproved like specialized stats, but you just say no w/o real reason, just because you think it would be useless, just an opinion, but SE has the real numbers, and they said they will be looking into it, most ppl tend to call us the vocal minority, but SE has the numbers and they are listening, you can keep saying no, but SE will listen to the feedback not the naysayers, the least you can do is help us with feedback to make our ideas of your liking.


Regarding the specialized stats, i don't think anyone will be left behind for being a 0.08 or even a 1% less efficient as long as they accomplish with the exigences of the fight, and as i said before, min/maxers will always be there, but most ppl will just use whatever is more comfortable or fun for them, or just whatever they can't afford, i said it before, i'm looking for a balanced system, not mandatory nor everlasting, i don't see any cons besides the usual pessimism about it being useless.

If you let maths ruin your fun, that's your problem, but it's not a reason to reject it.

snip

I'm not saying you're not fans, i have used this argument before, and what i always say is that Final fantasy has a lot of fans with very different tastes, and they should cater to every fan, even if it sounds unrealistic, i just don't wanna feel abandoned by the franchise i have been enjoying and supporting.

Most of you would really hate some of the things i would like to see in this game, i know some of my ideas would be enjoyed by a very small part of the player-base, and because of this i'm not purposing them, but some ppl just say no for the sake of it, instead of trying to help, if i have to play a risky card to explain why i'm here doing what i do, to make them listen and help, then i'll do it.

[Moqi]

you just say no w/o real reason, just because you think it would be useless, just an opinion, but SE has the real numbers, and they said they will be looking into it, most ppl tend to call us the vocal minority, but SE has the numbers and they are listening, you can keep saying no, but SE will listen to the feedback not the naysayers, the least you can do is help us with feedback to make our ideas of your liking.

Are you even reading yourself? I gave my reasons and I gave my feedback. Game's fine the way it is, keep going in this direction. If things are gonna change? You won't find me in this forum opening threads to bring back things the way they were, I'll just leave and find a game that I like. But keep talking about numbers you know nothing about.

[Renik]

Lets just think a bit, are there real character development choices in this game? the answer is no, the character levels up, you get some stat point to allocate that are no real choice because every job is based in one main stat, this is just a residual shadow of a 1.0v feature, after this all you do is gearing up after every update. This gear has main stats and secondary stats, some secondary stats can be easily converted into main stats using simple formulas, other although they are called secondary stats are just little modifications of other basic stats, i'm talking about accuracy, parry and crit.

What we are asking is for a more complex or depth system, with the lack of a skill tree or some kind of build, let's leave out cross class skills because having 5 slots for 3 useful skills in some cases can't be really considered a build, what we need is a personalization-build system through gear, this personalization can be made simple with stats like parried/blocked damage +X, critical hit damage +x... or more complex stats or minor traits like X skill+ X, MP cost -X.

Is this so bad? this is a RPG, but gearing in this game feels more like eating a mushroom in Mario bros.

We can introduce some choices w/o over-complicating it, this wouldn't change how the game is played, it would just give us reasons to think more strategically and farm other gear apart from soldiery.