Simplicity over complexity, time to change.

[skaterger]

This is what i want to see, my opinions are just opinions, we are here to see what the player-base wants, i think we all agree in one thing, this game is not perfect, and part of this imperfection is the simplicity of the game.

You think the gear progression is fine, but there is not real horizontal progression, in the end all that matters is ilvl, there's not real choice, we have 2 sources of gear, soldiery and HA, only these can be upgraded and most ppl will just get the easy route because, well the hard one is too hard and the difference is minimal. I don't think a wide range of gear is going to work, not with an ilvl system, but mya be adding more sources of gear and specialized stats will give us more freedom, real choices, there will always be min/maxers, but most ppl will just gear the way they feel more comfortable to them.

We can have horizontal gear progression w/o having an annoying number of sets.

Although I did not play 1.0 and ffxiv, I read about the gear swapping and how some skill sets compliment with certain type of gear, thus needing to farm 1 type of gear specifically. While that might give an illusion of choice it does not fit in with the ffxiv system

1. Combat in ffxiv is fast paced and fluid (though still slower than other mmos with a 2.5s gcd), having to keep swapping gear kills the flow of combat. Unless you want to go back to 1.0 style combat, I don't see how it can coexist. I remember having over 6 sets for my magnus exorcimus priest in Ragnarok Online and it was more of a chore than anything. It is an archaic system that should never see the day of light

2. By having gear that can be relevant for 2-3 years after its introduced, it will totally kill vertical progression. Imagine a trinket that boosts a certain skill by 20%. It might be better than trinket drops from the next 3 raids. Best gear should always come from raids. You can have alternative side grades, but not better than the one from end game content. This is a basic rule for any raiding endgame.[/QUOTE]

I don't see how.

If I didn't read your OP and know better, you sound just like http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...dying-steadily!

[Hurlstone]

SCH in XI for example was 'complex', just like Puppetmaster was 'complex', Blue Mage was also complex and some fights like say Shinryu has 'complexity' to it because it's more than just 'by the script.' So if actually being active and not following a 100% script is boring..yeah anything other than a simple MMO would be boring to you.

Puppetmaster was actually one of my favorite jobs, as was Blue Mage (I loved how it had actual solo capabilities) but where they really that complex? Compared to the starting jobs sure, but when compared to the classes of FFXIV I do not think they are any harder. The thing I remember most about those jobs was that they were also fun, they were not complex (If they were) for the sake of it. The boredom I refer to in regards to FFXI is more around the level grinding (Killing monsters over and over was not fun...) and staticness of some of the jobs. Thinking about it, one of my pet peeves was the fact that the community did punish you for trying to go against the script. Would any party accept a RDM/NIN (My personal favorite for farming) or even something like DRK/SAM, no matter how good they were?

I will admit that I enjoy some of the things other players would call 'scripted' or 'themepark' but so what? I still think there should be verity for every player, whether you want to follow the script or improvise your own performance. You like what you like, and I will like what I like. Hopefully, the game will be able to cater to us all as it continue its life and growth!

Too late, just mention XI and watch the hate comments roll in. Mention "going against the standard" and watch the hate comments roll in.

And mention making things easier or actually enjoying 'the script' and watch the flames rise. It is one of the reasons why I do not think one side should own the game.

[Tupsi]

If you did him straight up he DID have a script btw..and phases...

It's just like Ozma in FFIX, everything has a script in the sense there's a monster script to tell the monster to actually work, if that's what you mean - As the only thing scripted about him as this is the particular example is that he's scripted to use Dark Star x amount of times when he chooses to use it, which is t random. Since you mentioned phases, like Provenance Watcher, Shinryu's phases were based on his wing position (PW was based on wing count) which changed up how they were. Scripted encounters doesn't necessarily change much since if you break said script, strange things happen..

Even popping your god mode tonic doesn't work 100% of the time, it can still kill you if you're not careful because you can easily waste those 3 minutes. One of the Hunt monsters follows the same principles and so many people wiped because they're not used to something other than sit and spam your spam rotation.

[Fawkes]

Didn't they already say they won't and that the expansion is going to be more of the same?

Well, I guess the question I'm thinking of was about making new job types rather than just tank/healer/dps, and they said they wanted to keep it simple for any new players that might pick up the game at the expansion. But you could likely extend that answer out to everything else. If a fourth job type is too complex for new people to grasp then pretty much everything is off the table.

[ErBear]

Back in 1.0 I was trying to be an advicate of complexity BUUUTT. You have to understand where yoshi wants to go with this game, he doesn't want to hinder the player in any way shape or form. I mean, really there isn't even an elemental wheel on this game.

[Enkidoh]

Please don't attack peoples character based on assumption.

You're both frustrated with each other for wanting gameplay you both oppose. But you're not a worse gamer for wanting accessibility, and Zan isn't an egotist for wanting more complex gameplay.
He and many others are frustrated because there really aren't any games that embrace that sort of complexity or depth anymore. Even FF11 is a shell of what it once was. Companies seem to be embracing the same route of appealing to as many people as possible with little change that it's becoming boring and stale for him. In embracing the lowest common, they loose the parts that make them unique and interesting.

Personal attacks will get us nowhere. Please don't assume that because one person doesn't like something that they fall into some demonized category.
That goes for all of us.

Also, what is a gurgler?

Looking back at my previous post, in hindsight it did come across as somewhat nasty and spiteful, which is usually not how I respond to threads like this - so I do owe both Renik and Zantesuken apologies. I'm really sorry both of you. I still stand by my opinions on the subject of complexity in this game, but, I really should have approached this with a far cooler head and in a far less inflammatory way. Your post Gramul in particular made me rethink what I had said. So, thank you.

As for a gurgler, it's Australian slang for a drain - it's an old figure of speech that kind of didn't make much sense in hindsight.

[Renik]

Although I did not play 1.0 and ffxiv, I read about the gear swapping and how some skill sets compliment with certain type of gear, thus needing to farm 1 type of gear specifically. While that might give an illusion of choice it does not fit in with the ffxiv system

1. Combat in ffxiv is fast paced and fluid (though still slower than other mmos with a 2.5s gcd), having to keep swapping gear kills the flow of combat. Unless you want to go back to 1.0 style combat, I don't see how it can coexist. I remember having over 6 sets for my magnus exorcimus priest in Ragnarok Online and it was more of a chore than anything. It is an archaic system that should never see the day of light 2. By having gear that can be relevant for 2-3 years after its introduced, it will totally kill vertical progression. Imagine a trinket that boosts a certain skill by 20%. It might be better than trinket drops from the next 3 raids. Best gear should always come from raids. You can have alternative side grades, but not better than the one from end game content. This is a basic rule for any raiding endgame.

Right, well i never asked for gear swaps , this wouldn't work on this game, and gear will never last 2-3 years,, while i want specialized stats, i think the game should keep using the ilvl system and the main stat progression to please all, the specialized stats would be there just for ppl that want to specialize their job a bit, choosing between boosting one skill or another, getting more cure potency or saving MP, but once the new wave of gear comes we will have to start getting it because in most cases it will always be better, this will lead to building another set, in the end it's the same we have now, but it would give us more personalization, and why not, some strategy lovers can get them all and change them out of battle depending on the content.

It should be enough to give us freedom and choice but w/o making it mandatory and everlasting.

If I didn't read your OP and know better, you sound just like http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...dying-steadily!

Well not really, i'm not saying this game is dying, it is indeed a commercial success, but it's losing players, and this is not a good thing for a business, more players means more money reinvested in the game, and that's good for us.

Some players who hit the end of coil, or hit a wall in coil, see how this game is too simple and plain for them. About the growing part, it was in context with another post, there are some kids that like how the game is fun right now for them, but as they mature they will find themselves looking for a more intellectual challenge different to what this game actually offers.

[Zantetsuken]

Perhaps they shouldn't have tried to make [FFXI] easier casual friendly then.

^^This.^^

ffxiv 1.0 was designed to be a more realistic, challenging and complex game.

During this time, SE decided to transform FFXI into a more casual game in order to market each game to different groups.

So many left XI and migrated to 1.0 -- we were disappointed with its flaws but we stuck with it and began to see the game we were looking for in 1.23.

Then ARR happened and SE pulled the rug out from under us a second time.

I'm sure many of us would have been happy to stick with ffxi if they hadn't ruined it, but here we are now... Or here we were...

I personally recruited 7 other FFXI friends to play ARR at launch, but they have all since quit... As have many of those in my 1.23 and ARR early access friends list.

I tried holding out for good news about the future, but I haven't seen any. As a result, I have cancelled my sub as well.


SE has made a beautiful game in ARR, but it is so shallow and lacking in depth that it insults a person of even average intelligence if they should ever ask themselves: "Why should I bother trying to accomplish anything in this game?"

[Eissels]

Certain things I would like to be more complex, certain things I wouldn't.

Among what you listed, I personally don't want a super dangerous open world. It's not exciting, it's tedious. "Oh, I have to walk to coerthas? It's a five minute walk, but now it's going to take twenty minutes because I have to skirt around all the lvl 90 one-shot monsters." That's not fun, it's boring.

And, Hybrids really don't work in MMOs like this. You can't be a "jack of all trades" - because no matter what you're doing, you're going to be supplanted by someone better, and no one will take you. If you have a DPS/healer hybrid, it's just going to be replaced with a regular DPS that deals more damage, unless you tune fights around it, in which case it becomes absolutely mandatory and starts shunting other people out of the way.

[skaterger]

Right, well i never asked for gear swaps , this wouldn't work on this game, and gear will never last 2-3 years,, while i want specialized stats, i think the game should keep using the ilvl system and the main stat progression to please all, the specialized stats would be there just for ppl that want to specialize their job a bit, choosing between boosting one skill or another, getting more cure potency or saving MP, but once the new wave of gear comes we will have to start getting it because in most cases it will always be better, this will lead to building another set, in the end it's the same we have now, but it would give us more personalization, and why not, some strategy lovers can get them all and change them out of battle depending on the content.

It should be enough to give us freedom and choice but w/o making it mandatory and everlasting.

I do miss the theorycrafting from vanilla wow and bc. There were discussions going on for months on forums on best skill rotations/talents and gear choices. I think a good starting step that ffxiv can take is to do something with the materia system. They can then move on to set bonuses (the GC set bonus shows that they had an idea in place, just not sure why they didn't push further with that) and then perhaps introduce a few new stats into the game. Items which give boosts to skill are nice to have, but do not forget that this means the game will be much much harder to balance. One big advantage of having simplified stats is that the game becomes much easier to balance, since they only have to account for stat weightage on the main stats and couple of secondary stats.

Well not really, i'm not saying this game is dying, it is indeed a commercial success, but it's losing players, and this is not a good thing for a business, more players means more money reinvested in the game, and that's good for us.

Some players who hit the end of coil, or hit a wall in coil, see how this game is too simple and plain for them. About the growing part, it was in context with another post, there are some kids that like how the game is fun right now for them, but as they mature they will find themselves looking for a more intellectual challenge different to what this game actually offers.

Has SE released any data other than the one with 2 mil registered accounts and 500k concurrent subscriptions to show that its losing players? If so, I haven't seen any. And going by personal experience, I have only seen the number of players increasing on my server. I don't really understand the kids part either. Most of the people I play with in the game are working adults, some have kids and families and they like the options that the game offers to them. The game is casual oriented and there is never the feeling like you are left behind even if you choose to come back after taking a long break from the game. I think SE recognizes this and develops their game around this to cater to them and it is a very smart decision by them. Days of grinding in ffxi are pretty much over because most people just don't have the time for that anymore.