Simplicity over complexity, time to change.

[Renik]

snip

Our opinions are extremely opposite then, i don't think i can convince you, just gonna say this simplicity kills the game for me as well, there are things that can be inproved like specialized stats, but you just say no w/o real reason, just because you think it would be useless, just an opinion, but SE has the real numbers, and they said they will be looking into it, most ppl tend to call us the vocal minority, but SE has the numbers and they are listening, you can keep saying no, but SE will listen to the feedback not the naysayers, the least you can do is help us with feedback to make our ideas of your liking.


Regarding the specialized stats, i don't think anyone will be left behind for being a 0.08 or even a 1% less efficient as long as they accomplish with the exigences of the fight, and as i said before, min/maxers will always be there, but most ppl will just use whatever is more comfortable or fun for them, or just whatever they can't afford, i said it before, i'm looking for a balanced system, not mandatory nor everlasting, i don't see any cons besides the usual pessimism about it being useless.

If you let maths ruin your fun, that's your problem, but it's not a reason to reject it.

snip

I'm not saying you're not fans, i have used this argument before, and what i always say is that Final fantasy has a lot of fans with very different tastes, and they should cater to every fan, even if it sounds unrealistic, i just don't wanna feel abandoned by the franchise i have been enjoying and supporting.

Most of you would really hate some of the things i would like to see in this game, i know some of my ideas would be enjoyed by a very small part of the player-base, and because of this i'm not purposing them, but some ppl just say no for the sake of it, instead of trying to help, if i have to play a risky card to explain why i'm here doing what i do, to make them listen and help, then i'll do it.

[Zantetsuken]

Dark Souls and Monster Hunter both feature vertical progression placed alongside horizontal progression. In fact, the only real difference in their progression structure from FFXIV is that the horizontal options have more breadth. The rest of the games you mentioned are competitive multiplayer games in design formats that have nothing to do with MMORPGs.

By 'more breadth' I assume you mean that DS and MH have 'a healthy amount' as opposed to FFXIV's 'none at all'

The list of games that I mentioned are proof that horizontal systems have been successfully implemented and are a now a standard feature in nearly every single modern genre. ARR's purely vertical system is hearkens back to those old arcade games from the 1980s

[Velox]

Final fantasy has a lot of fans with very different tastes, and they should cater to every fan, even if it sounds unrealistic

Talking with experience from working in the game industry, trying to please everyone is impossible and the WORST kind of business model. If you try to please everyone, you end up pleasing no one. It's sad, but a part of reality, and every developer has to make the difficult choice of "we have to screw people over here, how can we minimize the impact?" every single day.

[Krr]

By 'more breadth' I assume you mean that DS and MH have 'a healthy amount' as opposed to FFXIV's 'none at all'

You're right, there is zero horizontal progression in FFXIV. Every time you get a piece of new gear the only thing that increases is its primary stat, and there are no secondary stats with questionable benefits and drawbacks that give us more than one option at each item level tier. The problem is, obviously, that these secondary stats need to be invented. For instance, how about one of these stats gives my attack more raw power, while the other lets me execute them faster, another makes them more accurate, and another still increases my chance to randomly do more damage with an attack?

Obviously, the problem is that these horizontals don't exist, and has nothing to do with their lack of balance.

(You really seriously have never analyzed good MonHun builds if you think that game is horizontal in the slightest. Each weapon has one of like, three pre-defined skill setups you work towards that are about as static as talent tree builds in WOTLK-era WoW - no one sane uses a Greatsword set that doesn't have Focus, Quick Draw, and as much +Power because that's the only way to make Greatswords good at what they do. And the difference between a Greatsword, and say, a Lance is no more 'horizontal' than the difference between a Paladin and a Dragoon.)

[Renik]

Talking with experience from working in the game industry, trying to please everyone is impossible and the WORST kind of business model. If you try to please everyone, you end up pleasing no one. It's sad, but a part of reality, and every developer has to make the difficult choice of "we have to screw people over here, how can we minimize the impact?" every single day.

I know, that's because i'm not asking for impossibles, some of the things i want to see have been mentioned by Yoshi, and i want to discuss the others to see if they would have a negative impact in the game, and if this is the case, how can we minimize it.

They can make the sacrifices needed but i don't think the majority of the player-base is actually happy with the current state of the game, as some say only the unhappy players come here to complain, the rest just play, but i have seen the opposite in-game, ppl that is not fully happy and don't care about the forums, some left, others keep waiting, we don't know the real numbers, and anything said here is just opinion until the dev team says something.

As i said before, don't think the current state of the game i what the majority wants, it's just the result of what they could do in 2 years, for me the simplicity of this game is just a consequence of launching an unfinished product due to the little time invested.

Don't forget some ppl will just blindly defend the game no matter what we say, and i know it because i have been in the other side defending this game from ppl who have been trying to improve it.

[Baneus]

I admire how your eventual goal is to have both play-styles satisfied. Far to many time do those wishing for more complex or harder content seem to want to eradicate any other forms of play and force everyone to follow there style.

That being said, you seem to be hinting that those fine with the game are not Final Fantasy fans, which I disagree with. I have been a fan of the series since my best friend introduced to FF8 when I was a kid. I enjoy FFXIV, and would even go as far as to say it is the best since X-2. It is far from an 'arcade' experience, if you ask me. I am not saying you are wrong to want a more complex experience, in fact I would like to see more civil discussion on the matter rather then 'I am right and you are wrong' but the 'fan card' may not called for.



Well said. It is not the black/white situation that some make it out to be, it is much more complex then that.

That. Plus this game still suffers from Latency Checks when more "complexity" is added to raids. For anyone in the world who isn't on the same continent of the servers they play on.

Wildstar also suffers from this. Until devs (in any game) can find a way to compensate for latency at 200-400ms, then fights of that nature will never be fun, even for people that love complex fights.

[Zantetsuken]

You're right, there is zero horizontal progression in FFXIV. Every time you get a piece of new gear the only thing that increases is its primary stat, and there are no secondary stats with questionable benefits and drawbacks that give us more than one option at each item level tier. The problem is, obviously, that these secondary stats need to be invented. For instance, how about one of these stats gives my attack more raw power, while the other lets me execute them faster, another makes them more accurate, and another still increases my chance to randomly do more damage with an attack?

Obviously, the problem is that these horizontals don't exist, and has nothing to do with their lack of balance.

No, the problem is that they DID exist in 1.23(as did an elemental wheel), but were stripped out of the game in ARR.

You really seriously have never analyzed good MonHun builds if you think that game is horizontal in the slightest. Each weapon has one of like, three pre-defined skill setups you work towards that are about as static as talent tree builds in WOTLK-era WoW - no one sane uses a Greatsword set that doesn't have Focus, Quick Draw, and as much +Power because that's the only way to make Greatswords good at what they do. And the difference between a Greatsword, and say, a Lance is no more 'horizontal' than the difference between a Paladin and a Dragoon.)

Those builds in MH are defined by the players rather than the game.

Furthermore, players can individually adapt builds to better fit their style. A Greatsword player has access to a VAST amount of skills to tailor as they please. Some may be better than others, but certain situations call for different skills and so there are even per-monster builds.

FFXIV is a one-size-fits-all styem. Every job/weapon/armor/must be equally viable in all circumstances.

In a way, I don't blame the devs much for the gimmicky endgame fights, it's the only way to make the game appear interesting, given the boring growth system they appear to be handcuffed to.

[Redemption]

Completely in support of more depth in just about all areas of the game, especially the itemization.

[ErBear]

Guys, yosh does not want the game to be too complex, stop!

[Jynx]

Like all things, complexity needs to be added where it will add depth to game systems.

You can streamline thing too much (What I think of the current state of FFXIV)
You can also overcomplicate things (Christ look at something like 1.0's quest system that allowed crafters to join in)

To me the game as it stands is a very blank slate, and the developers so far have decided to not do anything with it yet. The game has potential, vast ammounts of it to be correct it's up to the developers to see if they can tap it or let the game slide like every other MMO that has seen a flash of sucsess only to be shortly migrated away for the next new flavor of the month.

Without any depth this game is just a gear treadmill every update and the developers are even gating people from playing that the way they want too. Evnetually people are going to throw their arms in the air when they have nothing to do but a few raids a week.