Simplicity over complexity, time to change.

[Renik]

snip

Well it gives more balance work to the dev team, but this is not for us to worry about, limiting the game because it could lead to more balancing work doesn't seems logic for me, we should worry about having fun, it's their job making it possible.

I think we agree about having specialized stats w/o making them mandatory and everlasting, they just have to find the perfect balance, and that's their job.

About the other topic, well this is more about personal opinions and experiences than feedback, just wanted to say that even if the player-base is still growing, it could be even bigger by retaining more players.

[Fendred]

Just to clarify, FFXIV 1.0 was not shafted due to its complexity or difficulty. It was shafted because the game was released in an early beta/late alpha state instead of as a finished product.

[Moqi]

Now, you're totally free to hold these opinions, and truthfully there is nothing fundamentally wrong with it, but wouldn't you like to have something with a little more complexity? Something to give the game more depth and engagement so the game becomes even more involving so you don't get bored of it?

All the ideas in this thread sounds awful (well the first page anyway), except that debuff/buff class, because Green Mage and Tricksterare my favourite jobs in the franchise. Also I'm not bored of it by a long shot. I am not sure what people mean by "complexity" but if this thread is anything to go by (or most suggestion threads, tbh), I am glad this game is simple.

[Gramul]

All the ideas in this thread sounds awful (well the first page anyway)

Well, would you mind expanding on that? What are your thoughts and concerns on the approaches people would use in this thread?

[skaterger]

Well it gives more balance work to the dev team, but this is not for us to worry about, limiting the game because it could lead to more balancing work doesn't seems logic for me, we should worry about having fun, it's their job making it possible.

I think we agree about having specialized stats w/o making them mandatory and everlasting, they just have to find the perfect balance, and that's their job.

About the other topic, well this is more about personal opinions and experiences than feedback, just wanted to say that even if the player-base is still growing, it could be even bigger by retaining more players.

The fact is that the more complex a stat/gear system, the harder it is to balance. Warcraft, when first released was an incredibly complex game that had many class imbalances. This led to some classes like ret paladins and shadow priests having as much as 20% lower dps than other classes and no guild would take them into a raid. if you realize, the classes in ffxiv are mostly well balanced (aside from blm which was fixed). Wow struggled with this problem all the way up to patch 4.0 where they homogenized the classes. Not saying it cannot be done, but its really much harder than it sounds, especially if you have to balance pvp around it as well.

Just to clarify, FFXIV 1.0 was not shafted due to its complexity or difficulty. It was shafted because the game was released in an early beta/late alpha state instead of as a finished product.

Not entirely true. All we can say for certain that the game was discontinued because of its inability to attract enough players to stay afloat. The cause of why there was a lack of players/players left cannot be ascertained.

Case in point: If the game was still in beta but somehow manage to retain the subscription rate of ARR, we would still be playing 1.0 today.

[Renik]

All the ideas in this thread sounds awful (well the first page anyway), except that debuff/buff class, because Green Mage and Tricksterare my favourite jobs in the franchise. Also I'm not bored of it by a long shot. I am not sure what people mean by "complexity" but if this thread is anything to go by (or most suggestion threads, tbh), I am glad this game is simple.

Why do you oppose? if we get it to a balanced point everyone will be pleased, we will be able to play in a more immersive and comfortable way while you can still play the game in an arcade-like way, we are not trying to change the game in a drastic way.

You have to face something, this game is a final fantasy, and it has fans, if those fans are not comfortable with the game they will complain until the can have fun with it. You can try a game like wild star, and just leave if you don't like it, because you don't have any personal attachment to the brand, but this won't be happening here.

[Dree-Elle]

History has shown, again and again, that PC games generally do not fare well on consoles. Adding more "complexity" to the game is fine, well and good, but where do you draw the line so as not to lose those playing on a console (and perhaps, a fair portion of the PC crowd as well)?

In my experience with MMOs, large and small, well-known and obscure, PC-based and console based, I have observed the following trend: Hardcore players are more vocal about their desires, but the vast majority of players are neither hardcore nor vocal. In a subscription-based game such as this one, how do you keep things balanced so as to cater to both the vocal minority and the (mostly) silent majority?

How do you not lose the subscription money that is helping to develop the game and keep it afloat?

[Hurlstone]

Why do you oppose? if we get it to a balanced point everyone will be pleased, we will be able to play in a more immersive and comfortable way while you can still play the game in an arcade-like way, we are not trying to change the game in a drastic way.

You have to face something, this game is a final fantasy, and it has fans, if those fans are not comfortable with the game they will complain until the can have fun with it. You can try a game like wild star, and just leave if you don't like it, because you don't have any personal attachment to the brand, but this won't be happening here.

I admire how your eventual goal is to have both play-styles satisfied. Far to many time do those wishing for more complex or harder content seem to want to eradicate any other forms of play and force everyone to follow there style.

That being said, you seem to be hinting that those fine with the game are not Final Fantasy fans, which I disagree with. I have been a fan of the series since my best friend introduced to FF8 when I was a kid. I enjoy FFXIV, and would even go as far as to say it is the best since X-2. It is far from an 'arcade' experience, if you ask me. I am not saying you are wrong to want a more complex experience, in fact I would like to see more civil discussion on the matter rather then 'I am right and you are wrong' but the 'fan card' may not called for.

History has shown, again and again, that PC games generally do not fare well on consoles. Adding more "complexity" to the game is fine, well and good, but where do you draw the line so as not to lose those playing on a console (and perhaps, a fair portion of the PC crowd as well)?

In my experience with MMOs, large and small, well-known and obscure, PC-based and console based, I have observed the following trend: Hardcore players are more vocal about their desires, but the vast majority of players are neither hardcore nor vocal. In a subscription-based game such as this one, how do you keep things balanced so as to cater to both the vocal minority and the (mostly) silent majority?

How do you not lose the subscription money that is helping to develop the game and keep it afloat?

Well said. It is not the black/white situation that some make it out to be, it is much more complex then that.

[Zantetsuken]

Horizontal progressions sounds nice but it's a utopia. Someone will do the math, will find the best combination, and anybody who won't follow will be ignored/left behind.

Have players discovered the mathematically best character in Ultra Street Fighter IV? Is there a mathematically superior color in any recent release of Magic the Gathering? Where are mathematically best choices in DOTA2 or League of Legends, or Pokemon, or weapons in CoD, or Diablo Builds, or Starcraft factions, etc. etc. etc. ?

Have you ever played Dark Souls or Monster Hunter? What is the best weapon is in either of those games? In a properly developed horizontal system, all choices have advantages and disadvantages that require players must weigh in finding what best fits their play-style.

Those games are great games because they have DEPTH. As players become more skilled in the game, they discover more subtle aspects of each build. The variety of choices they offer the players means that those players will be constantly experimenting and working to find style that works best for them.

ARR, on the other hand, has no real decisions to make and no depth -- Every job performs mathematically the same as every other job in it's role. Only the appearances and the order of their rotations is different. Gear has a single stat: iLvl. Everything in ARR is equal and equally dull. ARR is a place where players won't have to think about anything while they play (Apparently, thinking=stress for today's mass market MMO demographic). The design philosophy of 'accessibility and no-stress' ensures that ARR will be on the same track for years to come.

Horizontal progression is hardly a utopia. It has be demonstrated to work effectively in many, MANY games. But it is more difficult/expensive to create, and it requires players to invest a bit into the game in order to get more out of it.

[Krr]

Have players discovered the mathematically best character in Ultra Street Fighter IV? Is there a mathematically superior color in any recent release of Magic the Gathering? Where are mathematically best choices in DOTA2 or League of Legends, or Pokemon even?

Have you ever played Dark Souls or Monster Hunter? What is the best weapon is in either of those games?

Dark Souls and Monster Hunter both feature vertical progression placed alongside horizontal progression. In fact, the only real difference in their progression structure from FFXIV is that the horizontal options have more breadth. There are even "BiS" sets for various weapons in MonHun for high levels of play. The rest of the games you mentioned are competitive multiplayer games in design formats that have nothing to do with MMORPGs.

And yes, we can prove the mathematically best characters in DOTA, LoL, Pokemon, and Street Fighter. Competitive scenes almost always feature option tier lists, which are actually derived from the real-life success rates of characters in various matchups. (DOTA and League, being team games, are a little more complex, mind you, but heroes still have matchups.)

(Right now, in Dark Souls 2, the best weapon is probably the Chaos Blade, with its high AR, wide swing arc, a pretty friggin' good thrust attack, and fast attack rate, that for some reason got buffed even though it was part of 'the meta' to begin with. Mathematically, it wins a hell of a lot of the time when evenly skilled opponents fight. Mathematically, this makes it a strictly better and stronger weapon than others in PvP. Don't get me started on the nonexistent choices in secondary options due to the massive tier gap for off-hand options.)