Simplicity over complexity, time to change.

[Gilthas]

So - Being "complex for the sake of complexity" isn't the same as 'Being simple for the sake of simplicity"?

Alrighty then.

No it isn't.

Complexity for the sake of complexity has a much more negative conotation to it than simplicity, because the former just brings unecessary bloat to the game.

Like many have said on these forums new areas should require effort to travel so I hope aetherytes won't be in all new zones frome here on out.

Why do so many people have a problem with others being able to teleport around?

[Moqi]

Now, you're totally free to hold these opinions, and truthfully there is nothing fundamentally wrong with it, but wouldn't you like to have something with a little more complexity? Something to give the game more depth and engagement so the game becomes even more involving so you don't get bored of it?

All the ideas in this thread sounds awful (well the first page anyway), except that debuff/buff class, because Green Mage and Tricksterare my favourite jobs in the franchise. Also I'm not bored of it by a long shot. I am not sure what people mean by "complexity" but if this thread is anything to go by (or most suggestion threads, tbh), I am glad this game is simple.

[Gramul]

All the ideas in this thread sounds awful (well the first page anyway)

Well, would you mind expanding on that? What are your thoughts and concerns on the approaches people would use in this thread?

[Zantetsuken]

Horizontal progressions sounds nice but it's a utopia. Someone will do the math, will find the best combination, and anybody who won't follow will be ignored/left behind.

Have players discovered the mathematically best character in Ultra Street Fighter IV? Is there a mathematically superior color in any recent release of Magic the Gathering? Where are mathematically best choices in DOTA2 or League of Legends, or Pokemon, or weapons in CoD, or Diablo Builds, or Starcraft factions, etc. etc. etc. ?

Have you ever played Dark Souls or Monster Hunter? What is the best weapon is in either of those games? In a properly developed horizontal system, all choices have advantages and disadvantages that require players must weigh in finding what best fits their play-style.

Those games are great games because they have DEPTH. As players become more skilled in the game, they discover more subtle aspects of each build. The variety of choices they offer the players means that those players will be constantly experimenting and working to find style that works best for them.

ARR, on the other hand, has no real decisions to make and no depth -- Every job performs mathematically the same as every other job in it's role. Only the appearances and the order of their rotations is different. Gear has a single stat: iLvl. Everything in ARR is equal and equally dull. ARR is a place where players won't have to think about anything while they play (Apparently, thinking=stress for today's mass market MMO demographic). The design philosophy of 'accessibility and no-stress' ensures that ARR will be on the same track for years to come.

Horizontal progression is hardly a utopia. It has be demonstrated to work effectively in many, MANY games. But it is more difficult/expensive to create, and it requires players to invest a bit into the game in order to get more out of it.

[Renik]

snip

Our opinions are extremely opposite then, i don't think i can convince you, just gonna say this simplicity kills the game for me as well, there are things that can be inproved like specialized stats, but you just say no w/o real reason, just because you think it would be useless, just an opinion, but SE has the real numbers, and they said they will be looking into it, most ppl tend to call us the vocal minority, but SE has the numbers and they are listening, you can keep saying no, but SE will listen to the feedback not the naysayers, the least you can do is help us with feedback to make our ideas of your liking.


Regarding the specialized stats, i don't think anyone will be left behind for being a 0.08 or even a 1% less efficient as long as they accomplish with the exigences of the fight, and as i said before, min/maxers will always be there, but most ppl will just use whatever is more comfortable or fun for them, or just whatever they can't afford, i said it before, i'm looking for a balanced system, not mandatory nor everlasting, i don't see any cons besides the usual pessimism about it being useless.

If you let maths ruin your fun, that's your problem, but it's not a reason to reject it.

snip

I'm not saying you're not fans, i have used this argument before, and what i always say is that Final fantasy has a lot of fans with very different tastes, and they should cater to every fan, even if it sounds unrealistic, i just don't wanna feel abandoned by the franchise i have been enjoying and supporting.

Most of you would really hate some of the things i would like to see in this game, i know some of my ideas would be enjoyed by a very small part of the player-base, and because of this i'm not purposing them, but some ppl just say no for the sake of it, instead of trying to help, if i have to play a risky card to explain why i'm here doing what i do, to make them listen and help, then i'll do it.

[Renik]

All the ideas in this thread sounds awful (well the first page anyway), except that debuff/buff class, because Green Mage and Tricksterare my favourite jobs in the franchise. Also I'm not bored of it by a long shot. I am not sure what people mean by "complexity" but if this thread is anything to go by (or most suggestion threads, tbh), I am glad this game is simple.

Why do you oppose? if we get it to a balanced point everyone will be pleased, we will be able to play in a more immersive and comfortable way while you can still play the game in an arcade-like way, we are not trying to change the game in a drastic way.

You have to face something, this game is a final fantasy, and it has fans, if those fans are not comfortable with the game they will complain until the can have fun with it. You can try a game like wild star, and just leave if you don't like it, because you don't have any personal attachment to the brand, but this won't be happening here.

[Hurlstone]

Why do you oppose? if we get it to a balanced point everyone will be pleased, we will be able to play in a more immersive and comfortable way while you can still play the game in an arcade-like way, we are not trying to change the game in a drastic way.

You have to face something, this game is a final fantasy, and it has fans, if those fans are not comfortable with the game they will complain until the can have fun with it. You can try a game like wild star, and just leave if you don't like it, because you don't have any personal attachment to the brand, but this won't be happening here.

I admire how your eventual goal is to have both play-styles satisfied. Far to many time do those wishing for more complex or harder content seem to want to eradicate any other forms of play and force everyone to follow there style.

That being said, you seem to be hinting that those fine with the game are not Final Fantasy fans, which I disagree with. I have been a fan of the series since my best friend introduced to FF8 when I was a kid. I enjoy FFXIV, and would even go as far as to say it is the best since X-2. It is far from an 'arcade' experience, if you ask me. I am not saying you are wrong to want a more complex experience, in fact I would like to see more civil discussion on the matter rather then 'I am right and you are wrong' but the 'fan card' may not called for.

History has shown, again and again, that PC games generally do not fare well on consoles. Adding more "complexity" to the game is fine, well and good, but where do you draw the line so as not to lose those playing on a console (and perhaps, a fair portion of the PC crowd as well)?

In my experience with MMOs, large and small, well-known and obscure, PC-based and console based, I have observed the following trend: Hardcore players are more vocal about their desires, but the vast majority of players are neither hardcore nor vocal. In a subscription-based game such as this one, how do you keep things balanced so as to cater to both the vocal minority and the (mostly) silent majority?

How do you not lose the subscription money that is helping to develop the game and keep it afloat?

Well said. It is not the black/white situation that some make it out to be, it is much more complex then that.

[Sonofbaldo]

Not gonna happen until more accounts are purged from boredom. SE seems to refuse to list an amount of active subscriptions so that could be telling. Though it's not like it takes that many subs to make an MMO profitable.

But hey, the game is already mass discounted. I bought mine for like 90% off on the Playstation Network and they're already introducing Refer A Friend Rewards so the influx of new subs must have already died down suggesting word of mouth is not good.

Frankly I'm not surprised. A casual gamer can complete this game as it stands right now in under 2 months. There's no staying power beyond that at the moment. It seems a lot may be riding on this expansion but I'm banking on it being more of the same. So I'm guessing the game will continue to bleed subs with little influx to counter the bleeding.

[Velhart]

Not gonna happen until more accounts are purged from boredom. SE seems to refuse to list an amount of active subscriptions so that could be telling. Though it's not like it takes that many subs to make an MMO profitable.

But hey, the game is already mass discounted. I bought mine for like 90% off on the Playstation Network and they're already introducing Refer A Friend Rewards so the influx of new subs must have already died down suggesting word of mouth is not good.

Frankly I'm not surprised. A casual gamer can complete this game as it stands right now in under 2 months. There's no staying power beyond that at the moment. It seems a lot may be riding on this expansion but I'm banking on it being more of the same.

Its a common thing with major MMO's. WoW even at it's pinnacle was still using discounts and free trials to get people in. Major sales usually happen at launches or when an expansion is released. In the in between time, they need to use various methods to get that small amount in. It works pretty well actually, probably one of the smaller reasons that WoW got to such it state it did.

[Teroril]

So far, it looks like nin may have some complexity in the way they execute some of their abilities. I would like to see more of that in classes

I would especially like to see more buff/debuff heavy classes and jobs..

Teleporting should be limited to hubs, in the expansion zones.

I would like to see more elites around that can trounce players if they aren't careful, making you have to pay attention, when you travel

I would like to see open world areas that are meant for 4man groups or more.