Simplicity over complexity, time to change.

[Velhart]

What? I am quite sorry but that is an insane statement. Complexity 'adds' depth where done tastefully, even your Mario example the depth (I don't agree that mario is a game with a lot of depth) comes from situations that make your interactions more complex such as complicated jumping segments or enemies with complex mechanics) comes from complexity despite the game not being super complex. Simplification always results in 'limited' depth, the complexity of a system determines how much depth can be had from it. IGNORING THAT, if complexity was never a good thing then we would be playing games where we have no characters but would just be represented with a square instead because character art and 3d worlds is unnecessary complexity right? How about needing to move in combat? Don't need it, its another layer of complexity right? Don't have gear, levels, don't make people do anything because complex mechanics in any way are bad right?

Again, I am sorry but that is simply wrong.

We were talking about simplicity in the mechanics itself, not the entire game as a whole. Should read more carefully.

Can use this as a reference if you don't get it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVfzWpmyXXk

Being simple in the mechanics alone allows you more freedom to make what is around you more or less difficult. Relying on difficulty more through the mechanics itself is not proper balancing and not good game design if you are trying to appeal to a wider audience.

[Redemption]

We were talking about simplicity in the mechanics itself, not the entire game as a whole. Should read more carefully.

Can use this as a reference if you don't get it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVfzWpmyXXk

Being simple in the mechanics alone allows you more freedom to make what is around you more or less difficult. Relying on difficulty more through the mechanics itself is not proper balancing and not good game design if you are trying to appeal to a wider audience.

I get the idea and disagree. Heck the entire RPG genre works counter to your argument where complex stat systems and tatctical synergies are definitely part of the fun and are part of the mechanics of the games core function. I also do not care about wider audience appeal, so long as your game can make a good enough profit I think it better to focus your game rather than attempt to fit it to everyone (I am aware this runs counter to business thought but as a consumer I really do not care at all about other peoples profit margins and I am sure they do not count on me for that. Instead I prefer the approach of pursuing what I want and letting the people running the business figure out how to work that financially.) as that tends to result in mediocrity.

Extra Credits put it rather well when they said that "Depth is bought with Complexity, but Complexity also restricts Depth"

Or, think of Complexity as Spices, and Depth as Flavor. The proper type and amount of the former is can give a solid boost to the latter.

But careless, or excessive use of either Complexity or Spice can completely ruin an experience rather than enhance it.

Perhaps, but I don't think anyone here is asking for things to be complex without reason or rather I don't think people want complexity that does nothing. Suffice to say, the people supporting this thread do not think the complexity level is right yet.

We have 2 million already. Chinese release will adds 2 more. A successful MMO that is not suddenly dropped (i doubt SE will drop it) peak at around 5-6 years than steady decline to about 50% and than stagnation/slow drop until game becomes really outdated and closed.

The game does not have 2 million active subscribers -.- ... thats intentionally miss worded marketing stuff. The game has sold over 2 million copies but as far as active subscribers go it is somewhere over 500k and somewhere under 2 million.

[Renik]

We were talking about simplicity in the mechanics itself, not the entire game as a whole. Should read more carefully.

Maybe i lost something, but when i started this thread i was talking about the overall simplicity of this game, and while i used the word complexity what i wanted to say was indeed depth, in the end both come together.

Lets just say we are not talking about making the game more complex or the sake of it, just less simple, because anyone can see this game has a lot of potential, but it's actually hollow.

[Felessan]

Lets just say we are not talking about making the game more complex or the sake of it, just less simple, because anyone can see this game has a lot of potential, but it's actually hollow.

This actually amuses me how people that do nothing to push mechanics past "simple" accuse it that it's too hollow. Maybe try harder and at least pass through T5 before complaining about simplicity?
It's like you want to intentionally make game harder for everyone because you are bored and too lazy to actually do something, so you want game do it for you.

[Zantetsuken]

What?I am quite sorry but that is an insane statement. Complexity 'adds' depth where done tastefully, even your Mario example the depth (I don't agree that mario is a game with a lot of depth) comes from situations that make your interactions more complex such as complicated jumping segments or enemies with complex mechanics) comes from complexity despite the game not being super complex. Simplification always results in 'limited' depth, the complexity of a system determines how much depth can be had from it. IGNORING THAT, if complexity was never a good thing then we would be playing games where we have no characters but would just be represented with a square instead because character art and 3d worlds is unnecessary complexity right? How about needing to move in combat? Don't need it, its another layer of complexity right? Don't have gear, levels, don't make people do anything because complex mechanics in any way are bad right?

Again, I am sorry but that is simply wrong.

Extra Credits put it rather well when they said that "Depth is bought with Complexity, but Complexity also restricts Depth"

Or, think of Complexity as Spices, and Depth as Flavor. The proper type and amount of the former is can give a solid boost to the latter.

But careless, or excessive use of either Complexity or Spice can completely ruin an experience rather than enhance it.

[Angelfish51]

In such a small community, it is hard to separate complex and simple contents, they just cannot coexist! They tried, by introducing unhinted quest, and scob with random mechanics, but I just don't see ppl allured to these. Ppl rather play mindless but high reward elite hunt!
I don't want to see them bringing the FFXI system here, that a single wipe may ruin the whole party/alliance several hours of grind and most endgame content takes about 3 hours!

[Tupsi]

I don't want to see them bringing the FFXI system here, that a single wipe may ruin the whole party/alliance several hours of grind and most endgame content takes about 3 hours!

Except in XI you can actually recover nicely from a wipe - It takes a hell of a good team to recover from a partial wipe in XIV because of how unforgiving and poorly done some mechanics are. Both your healers are dead? Too bad, the PLD can't hold the boss long enough because of only having 1 tier of cure and the monster out paces you, sure would be nice if someone else could keep them up so you can recover your healers.

The only time a wipe 'ruined a run' in XI is if its on a ground king because some other group would claim it or on certain content like Provenance Watcher, Pandemonium Warden or Absolute Virtue where they instantly despawn.

but I just don't see ppl allured to these

Because Savage is tied to the same cooldown as regular, that's a big part of it. Also 'no hint quests' doesn't offer a reward really and people want rewards..usually "good ones".

[Redemption]

In such a small community, it is hard to separate complex and simple contents, they just cannot coexist! They tried, by introducing unhinted quest, and scob with random mechanics, but I just don't see ppl allured to these. Ppl rather play mindless but high reward elite hunt!
I don't want to see them bringing the FFXI system here, that a single wipe may ruin the whole party/alliance several hours of grind and most endgame content takes about 3 hours!

Gonna address this really quick, one wipe in FFXI would not set you back an hours worth of exp... it would be more like 15 mins worth. Also the endgame content time varied widely from events that took 30 mins (nyzul island climb, or even normal assaults) to your long 3 hr example (dynamis).

[Felessan]

You have a world of MMO games that cater to your tastes: TERA, BLADE AND SOUL, AION, ATLANTICA, WoW, WildStar, etc. etc. etc.
I'm surprised you are so passionate about defending ARR as generic WoW-clone when you have plethora of other options to migrate to if it ever changed.
But for FF MMO fans ( FFXI, and FFIXV 1.23), this is really the last bastion.

You can go to the dying sun... oops, to FFXI of course.
I don't want to go somewhere else, as I want:
a) FF MMO (I was quite a big fan of FFXI). But I don't want FF11-2 as I am way past it (it was good, but it was 10 years ago) and it's really outdated and unfriendly for common people.
b) High Quality modern style MMO with all those hard-tested design choices that makes WoW how it is.
The truth is that WoW itself was a "masterwork clone" that gathered many of good ideas from that time, that made it successful. Then it improved them to the point we see now. (vanilla wow had the same "explore to travel", "20 min to go to destination", travel on your feet is a bless etc, until it was removed as "grind mechanics" that counterproductive for main masses of people).
And I want FF14 to do the same, get all the good people invented in the last 10 years, and some FF flavor, get a lot of people in, be successful - and continue to improve and add unique to ff14 features. Not just "copy-paste from ff11, even though it's outdated grindy stuff".

[Magis]

Snip

Ah yes, the design choices that had WoW lose 5mil subs since going the themepark route (Wrath and Beyond). That's 2.5x the population of FFXIV! Strange how the main subscription gain was when WoW was still an "old school" MMO back in Vanilla and TBC with actually having to travel (OMG!), leveling being a part of the gameplay, grinds, large complex dungeons, unique classes with their own uses, etc. But that's "outdated" I guess. It's the new age, where brains don't have to be used, everything has to be instant, and everything should be as the same as possible and streamlined.

http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-1.png