Beef between WAR and PLD tanks

[Surian]

I'm sorry, but any sort of mitigation diffirences havent been true since 2.1. Damage taken is virtually identical, but Warrior has so many more tools and damage dealing/enmity grabbing things available to it.

With 25% more HP and 20% more healing, combined with Inner Beast's 13% overal reduction (has 6s -20% on what is pretty much a 9 second recast) that MORE than equals Shield Oath. I say equals since i dont want to step on anyone's toes, but between you and me it blows Shield Oath completely out of the water. Math-wise it means that warriors get hit for 87%, while paladins get hit for 80%, so you're exchanging 7% more damage taken for 25% more HP and 20% more healing. That's rediculous.

The thing that happens is that they see a Warrior with 7000 HP and a Paladin with 7000 HP, and they see the warrior is doing worse.
(pro-tip: That would be i70 gear on the Warrior opposed to i90 on a Paladin to hit that HP)

Warrior really is rediculously more powerful than a Paladin at equal gear levels.

[MythToken]

I'm sorry, but any sort of mitigation diffirences havent been true since 2.1. Damage taken is virtually identical, but Warrior has so many more tools and damage dealing/enmity grabbing things available to it.

With 25% more HP and 20% more healing, combined with Inner Beast's 13% overal reduction (has 6s -20% on what is pretty much a 9 second recast) that MORE than equals Shield Oath. [/U]

Im not sure what you are talking about, but all the math has proven that they are exactly = in the amount of damage they take and the amount they do.

[Surian]

Im not sure what you are talking about, but all the math has proven that they are exactly = in the amount of damage they take and the amount they do.

And i just gave you the actual math that tells you that it's not. It's an exchange of 7% more damage taken, for 25% more HP and 20% more healing. How is that "exactly the same"?

But alright, how about this then. Look at all the things that Warrior has...


- It has all the ability effects Paladin has combined unto its own abilities, but those abilities themselves have their own Warrior-Exclusive effects on top of that as well which Paladin do not have.

Storm Path = Rage of Halone + Absorb HP for 50% of the damage done
Inner Beast = Rampart + Absorb HP for 100% of damage done, also circumvents Defiance it's damage reduction.
Foresight = Convalescence (20% defense for 20% cured, roughly the same)
Vengeance = Sentinel
Holmgang = Hallowed Ground + draw in and bind to prevent people from running.

- Enchainment lets it circumvent the damage reduction from Defiance.
- The Potency on all of it's spammable attacks is rediculous. 280 to 300 points of potency on things they can throw out every 5 seconds if they so desired.
- 50% HP Absorbs from Storm's Path they basicly spam every few seconds regardless.
- Insane AoE attacks with high potency. Which are spammable opposed to the 25 second wait on a Paladin's Circle of Scorn with a measely 100 potency which has no enmity bonus :/
- Warrior has a lot of self heals that arent laughable like a Paladin's 200 HP Cures costing 133 MP from Conjurer sub.
- Warriors have Lower TP costs on all their abilities now.
- They have Shorter Recasts.
- Do not have Stun on the Global Cooldown, which is amazing for them allowing them to stun without having to stop their combo-rotation.
- They have Higher Critical Hitrates, but ok, fair enough.
- They have Longer Duration Buffs.

What does Paladin have going for it?

- 10% more damage blocked on sentinel for 10 seconds, every 3 whole minutes. (opposed to warriors getting 30% for 15 seconds)
- Insignificant blocks from a shield that happen less than 10% of the time, blocking 20% at most when you're using a i100+ shield. Great, a whole 2% reduction overal. And that's asuming most attacks arent non-physical and thus unblockable, which most boss attacks are. Even in the best of circumstances (read: fairytale-land) if you could get a delusional 30% blockrate, it would still translate in a mere 6% reduction overal, which still wouldnt even come close to the things Warrior brings to the table.

[silvach]

Warrior really is rediculously more powerful than a Paladin at equal gear levels.

Warriors have more tools to have fun with. We are just pushing 3 buttons and clicking on cool-downs. However, you neglected the ability to block that is quite a damage reduction itself. I know it's not 100% but still having this 30% hits blocked (or more with bulwark) gives you a way more damage reduction. However, in my opinion, they should add DEFENCE to Shields so PLD would be really more "tanky" tanks. At current stage the only thing that makes them more durable is the block chance - but this is something no one can predict (especially healers) so everyone have to act as if the block was not there at all.

WAR can overaggro PLD with ease, and hold the targets on their arse with ease as well. PLD have to sometimes struggle, but WAR just push their Berserk, hit with Steel Cyclone, Butcher's combo, unchained, butcher's combo and Flash when Berserk debuff hits him. Try to overaggro that. good luck. I'm playing with my friend WAR and we are doing trials together, he tells me that he can crit for 900 with Butcher's when I can crit for ~~350 with RoH. This is tremendous difference as both skills got same enmity multiplier. Oh yes our weapons are not the same, his weapon is +6 damage more. But don't tell me I will be able to do 900 crits with RoH

edit: due to the recent changes Steel Cyclone is best enmity generator in game. 200 potency, 3x multiplier applying the Defiance it makes 6x multiplier with no damage reduction debuff. Nothing can hit harder and nothing can do more enmity.

[Kyana]

1. However, you neglected the ability to block that is quite a damage reduction itself. I know it's not 100% but still having this 30% hits blocked (or more with bulwark) gives you a way more damage reduction.

2. WAR can overaggro PLD with ease, and hold the targets on their arse with ease as well.

1. True. The sad thing is that Shield Swipe has no enmity multiplier. That would be great for enmity, TP and dmg.
2. Also true. Usually I can do 1 enmity combo with WAR and then keep using the Storm's combos without a problem*. PLD on the other hand...well, it's not like PLD got alot of choices anyway. It's RoH combo unless you need MP.

*against ilvl95+ DDs in both cases

[Warrlordd]

So much bad in this thread right now, you gotta stop.

Seriously though, @OP from what you said you KNEW it would be this way when you levelled your warrior. How about you embrace the OT role, become an effective and positive addition to your group. Instead of being that warrior how pretends he is a paladin.

Or you could role paladin if u want to MT. Genius, right?

P.S why are we still talking about titan ex? That fight has cobwebs on it, its so old. IIRC, there is no MT or OT as tanking is shared equally, with PLD doing extra effort on heart phase and warrior doing extra on adds.

You Sir, must get GOOD instead of thinking its okay to be bad!

[MythToken]

Pretty much everyone who has posted anything other than WAR = PLD in this thread is just wrong.

MT = PLD and WAR
OT = PLD and WAR

The difference is knowing when its a good idea to switch roles. ie Levi Ex would be dumb to have the WAR on OT since he cant stun the adds as effectively.

[Traek]

Pretty much everyone who has posted anything other than WAR = PLD in this thread is just wrong.

MT = PLD and WAR
OT = PLD and WAR

The difference is knowing when its a good idea to switch roles. ie Levi Ex would be dumb to have the WAR on OT since he cant stun the adds as effectively.

This.

Don't listen to the others OP. They know not which they speak. A simple search of old debates has more then enough proof. We aren't obligated to post old information everytime someone clueless comes in posting false information as facts.

[Machetazzo]

Funny how math comes up with different results in favour of all options (WAR better, PLD better, equal) in all those threads about tanks.
And they told us back in days at the school that the math is not subjective

Beside, this game is so well balanced at the moment that you can do any content with any class configuration of the party, that those little beefs between people are rather amusing. People should focus on trying to improve their gameplay, not on strength of their class. Even if any class would be slightly more powerful, the great rule would remain the same - Good player will outclass a bad player

[Mordermi]

Kitru. Where art thou? I'm sure you have a readily available document from which to copy and paste to correct the misinformation in this thread.