Beef between WAR and PLD tanks

[Marianno]

I've been in multiple 8-man dungeons as a DPS and noticed this. It started slowly and then gradually started to increase. Everytime I'm in a 8-man group with a PLD and WAR tank the PLD feel that most WAR are incompetent at tanking and thus should not be a MT and only good as a OT. I decided to play on my WAR class and noticed this again. I had more HP than the PLD I was in a trail with and this was Titan EX. The PLD tank has 7129 hp and 8637 HP after I eat food but about 8461 hp without food. The PLD wanted to be MT. While I have no problem with PLD being MT I didn't think that he would have survived most ofthe blows dealt to him during the fight. Not that the PLD tank was incompetent or anything but I think the more HP you ahve as a tank the better, or I could be wrong. Most of the members in teh group even wantedthe PLD to be Mt and wanted me to be OT. I understand that WAR OT is good DPS for a tank and can pretty damn OP for a tank if played correctly. However, my question is, Am I wrong for telling the PLD to let me be MT instead and he be OT considering the HP difference and hate difference between us both? What's the grand difference between the two tanking classes?

Note: The PLD tank did have a hard time keeping hate and I turned Defiance off so that he could keep hate but he could not keep hate completely. Not to mention he did get thrashed pretty badly with the mountain busters and did get knocked off the cliff a plethora of times and we did wipe due to this many times. So all in all its just minor mistakes of not anticipating titan's move set that caused that PLD tank to make little mistakes and we wiped.

[Moonwolfthegrey]

Long story short, a good war is as good as a good PLD
For everything

[SpookyGhost]

Taking a quick look at your Lodestone profile (assuming this is your best gear), you have 6446 HP. If the PLD had 7129 HP, there's actually quite a big gear difference there. Something a lot of people don't seem to know is that WAR and PLD both have two different tanking stances - Defiance (WAR) increases your base HP by 25% and increases healing received by 20% whereas Shield Oath (PLD) reduces damage by 20%. These, baseline, are equivalent to eachother. So the best way to tell who actually has more HP is if you have more than the PLD without Defiance on.

Now, specifically for Titan EX (imo) it's better that the PLD is off tank regardless as they have access to Hallowed Ground and Tempered Will which greatly reduces their worry about avoiding landslides during the add phase. A WAR is perfectly capable of doing this as well, its just slightly more complicated (Holmgang can also stop landslides from knocking you off, though it also stops you from moving).

There are fights where PLD is a better MT than WAR (mainly for Hallowed Ground), and there are situations where WAR is the better MT (fights with predictable bursts of big damage, IE death sentence in T5). Both tanks can tank equally well, as Moonwolf said, so when deciding who should MT and who should OT its usually on a fight to fight bases and based on who's the more geared of the two. I don't really agree with WAR always getting stuck on the OT role (as the combination of WAR MT/PLD OT actually does more damage than PLD MT/WAR OT when played properly) but if you get stuck with that job then you're just going to have to suck it up and queue a Butcher's Block.

[Marianno]

lol that's what I've been doing lately, just sucking it up. But it is kind of baffling to me as to the grand scheme of teh difference between the two tanks. I should like to think that they are both jobs that are completely capable of getting the job done regardless

[Enyeto]

Defiance (WAR) increases your base HP by 25% and increases healing received by 20% whereas Shield Oath (PLD) reduces damage by 20%. These, baseline, are equivalent to eachother. So the best way to tell who actually has more HP is if you have more than the PLD without Defiance on.

These 2 abilities do not equal out:

Defiance: +25% HP // +20% Healing Received
Shield Oath: -20% Dmg Taken

Example:
(War: [HP Base] 3100 + [Gear] to 6000HP + [Defiance] 1500 = Total 7500 HP)
(PLD: Geared has 6000HP)

If both took 2 hits @ 3k remaining hp looks like:
War: 1500
Pld: 1200 (-600 dmg per hit)

With that settled, I play Warrior and I prefer to off-tank because I think Paladins are not as strong with AE hate and lack the cool downs to properly OT. MT gets most of the focus healing, WAR's are engineered to survive without immediate healing and are more efficient to heal. Naturally putting them in a spot to take a nasty beating would be better.

[whiskeybravo]

These 2 abilities do not equal out:

Defiance: +25% HP // +20% Healing Received
Shield Oath: -20% Dmg Taken

Example:
(War: [HP Base] 3100 + [Gear] to 6000HP + [Defiance] 1500 = Total 7500 HP)
(PLD: Geared has 6000HP)

If both took 2 hits @ 3k remaining hp looks like:
War: 1500
Pld: 1200 (-600 dmg per hit)

Wrong..

PLD with 6000 HP = WAR with 7500 HP

Incoming damage of 3000

PLD 6000 HP - 2400 = 3600 HP (60% HP)
WAR 7500 HP - 3000 = 4500 HP (60% HP)

Incoming Cure of 2000

PLD = 3600 + 2000 = 5600 HP (93% HP)
WAR = 4500 + 2400 = 6900 HP (92% HP)

Same effective HP

[Mjytresz]

Wrong..

PLD with 6000 HP = WAR with 7500 HP

Incoming damage of 3000

PLD 6000 HP - 2400 = 3600 HP (60% HP)
WAR 7500 HP - 3000 = 4500 HP (60% HP)

Incoming Cure of 2000

PLD = 3600 + 2000 = 5600 HP (93% HP)
WAR = 4500 + 2400 = 6900 HP (92% HP)

Same effective HP

The problem with eHP is that it hardly works out in practical scenarios.
Just coming from an Eve Online perspective.

From a novice Tank and experienced Healer perspective, I most definitely prefer Warriors for normal 4-mans. They generally seem to be more capable of holding AoE aggro and the extra HP buffer makes it easier to get off DoTs/Shadow Flare on SCH. For an 8-man, I prefer PLDs. PLDs, from experience healing both, are a lot more sturdy when there's 1 main target to watch out for. Not to mention all that mitigation gives the healer time to heal/raise the DPS who can't dodge AoEs with 4 hour cast time.

[Traek]

The problem with eHP is that it hardly works out in practical scenarios.
Just coming from an Eve Online perspective.

From a novice Tank and experienced Healer perspective, I most definitely prefer Warriors for normal 4-mans. They generally seem to be more capable of holding AoE aggro and the extra HP buffer makes it easier to get off DoTs/Shadow Flare on SCH. For an 8-man, I prefer PLDs. PLDs, from experience healing both, are a lot more sturdy when there's 1 main target to watch out for. Not to mention all that mitigation gives the healer time to heal/raise the DPS who can't dodge AoEs with 4 hour cast time.

Again someone who doesn't know what they are talking about. Please stop spreading mis-information. You are wrong.

[whiskeybravo]

The problem with eHP is that it hardly works out in practical scenarios.
Just coming from an Eve Online perspective.

It really is the same, I'm experienced with both tank jobs. The only difference is content. I would not solo tank T5 with WAR (I've certainly seen it done, but I wouldn't want to do it myself, because HG on snakes is OP. If running 2 tank, and exp and gear is equal, anyone who knows both jobs will say WAR is better MT for T5), and I prefer to tank TEX on PLD mainly because of Tempered Will, which isn't even a defensive CD. And like you said regarding dungeons, I only run dungeons on War because of the AoE threat tools.

So there are differences depending on content, but the tanks are really balanced and capable when it comes to surviving.

[Eye_Gore]

I thought the basic difference was that a GLA/PLD tank while having a lower overall HP, had a higher defense and was better at mitigating damage taken to compensate for the lower HP. Where a MRD/WAR tank had the highest HP to take more damage, but could do more overall damage. Thus the two would seem to equal out and it really doesn't matter. While one may seem to be better in a situation, it shouldn't matter as long as the player knows what they are doing.