Paladin idea for expansion

[UBERHAXED]

Gibberish

In no situation will a good paladin ever do more damage or generate more hate than a good warrior. I hope that was a joke (albeit a bad one). Warrior does more damage (uh... due to maim... which should be up 100% of the time) and certainly does higher single target and multiple target enmity generation. And this was before taking into account the 2.1 buffs. This was the same situation at launch.

[Exstal]

In no situation will a good paladin ever do more damage or generate more hate than a good warrior. I hope that was a joke (albeit a bad one). Warrior does more damage (uh... due to maim... which should be up 100% of the time) and certainly does higher single target and multiple target enmity generation. And this was before taking into account the 2.1 buffs. This was the same situation at launch.

This has been proven false. Stop living in 2.0.

[Donjo]

In no situation will a good paladin ever do more damage or generate more hate than a good warrior. I hope that was a joke (albeit a bad one). Warrior does more damage (uh... due to maim... which should be up 100% of the time) and certainly does higher single target and multiple target enmity generation. And this was before taking into account the 2.1 buffs. This was the same situation at launch.

Stop spouting off and actually read!

Did I ever say that "X will always do Y better?". No!

First of all, the 2.1 buffs did absolutely nothing to increase the damage of WAR's. The only enmity increase was the one granted to Overpower. So, whether it's 2.0 or 2.1 doesn't matter. WAR Damage and Hate when compared to PLD is absolutely unchanged.

To put things in better perspectives:

A WAR will, if they pop Berserk, Unchained, and all the stops at the beginning of a fight, establish a large hate lead on a PLD. Meanwhile, A PLD pops Fight or Flight and generally proceeds to slowly catch up to the WAR's hate. By the time a WAR is ready to burst again, the PLD has probably either reached their level of hate or even passed them. Keep in mind that this is in situations in which both Tanks are equally geared, and I mean equal. They're both wearing all Fending accessories, wearing all DPS accessories, or wearing equally melded alternate accessories. They also have identical bonus attribute distributions. I have observed the WAR's reliance on an initial burst in several situations where I, as PLD, have to switch off with a WAR. Even if I switch to Sword Oath, I can steal hate right back if I don't give the WAR a second. This is albeit temporary as the WAR burst happens eventually to really establish hate, but the ebb and flow I describe here shows a balance in their Hate generation. I'm talking "through the entire fight" here, not "the first 1-2 minutes of the fight". The shorter the fight is, the higher the WAR's hate lead will be. If a WAR is dumb enough to try and keep both Storm's up, I've stolen hate as a PLD in Sword Oath on Twintania even though I had no threat on Twin herself while taking the 3 dragons at the start of the fight.

A WAR does more damage while Main Tanking because of Maim, Wrath, Unchained, etc. However, the use of things like Maim and Storms and such necessitate that not every combo can be the Butcher's Block combo, which is the only one with enmity multipliers. This means that in completely normal situations where the "good" warrior is keeping Maim and a Storm up and waiting for berserk and unchained to go off cooldown, a PLD is actually generating hate more quickly because all they have to do is spam their hate combo. The thing about PLD Hate Generation is that it's very consistent, and that's their strength. It's not a magical balance breaking situation because the WAR's burst makes up for the loss they suffered during the interim phases and Fight or Flight is not as powerful as the Berserk/Unchained combo. When the fight is all said and done, the WAR and the PLD will have generated approximately an equal amount of hate on a single target. If one is actually winning, it's not by a significant margin because it's obvious that both can keep hate on a single target.

When off tanking, a PLD switches to Sword Oath, nullifies the 20% penalty from Shield Oath, and gains 50 potency on every auto attack. This is a constant and underestimated gain in DPS that only changes when Fight or Flight is up. An OT Paladin will also always have the full 300 potency of Spirits Within in addition to the 250 Total Potency of Circle of Scorn. When off tanking, a WAR will remove Defiance. This nullifies the 20% penalty on damage, but also removes the ability to gain and use Wrath, which is a significant part of WAR hate generation and damage generation while tanking. A WAR can compensate for the lack of these moves by applying Storm's Eye, but this also helps the PLD. Alone, an OT WAR will probably beat a PLD, but when they're together Storms Eye will make the PLD win. I'm only talking about 8 man content in which both are present in the same fight.

When we're talking AOE hate, the WAR wins. No contest. Overpower and Steel Cyclone scale on STR, which is much more beneficial for Hate Generation than Weapon Damage or whatever in the world Flash actually scales off of.

So, let me make this perfectly clear. I'd first like to reiterate again that these are based on fights where both a PLD and WAR are in the same party.

I never said that "PLD generates more hate than WAR". I said that they generate an approximately equal amount of threat and the way a WAR's generation ebbs and flows will enable a PLD to steal hate for a time before the WAR's next burst. Maybe my post was unclear, but the idea was that (high consistent + low burst) == (low consistent + high burst). Think of it as 1 + 0 = 0 + 1, if you want.

I never said that "PLD does more damage than a WAR". I said that an MT WAR does more damage than an MT PLD and an OT PLD does more damage than an OT WAR. When both are fighting the same enemy. I honestly cannot see what you got out my post to think that I was saying that PLD always does more damage no matter what.

There are reasons that people like having PLD and WAR together. It's because they are completely awesome and complement each other when they're in the same battle. When they're both beating on the same enemy and switching the tank job once in a while, they're pretty much equal. That's the point.

[jlewiss]

I'm not sure much about an ebb and flow but generally speaking any tanks equally geared can steal hate from eachother if they try hard enough. ST/CT is the perfect example of this you can watch the bosses focus bounce from pld to war to war to war to pld and in a circle forever. It just comes down to whoever has the most buffs on.

[abzoluut]

I think all jobs will get huge changes. We currently have a class -> job system. It does not work. The one class that can branch out in two jobs already has problems: shared attributes.

If SE is smart, they will dump this 1.0 remnant system and just make jobs with job specific abilities which are much more easy to add/balance.

I have good hopes since Yoshi himself said that he acknowledges the problems with the current system and might even change the whole system.

Btw OP, WARs did not get a "massive" buff, they were just broken. Just one example: IB would heal you for 200hp on a lvl 10 mob, but also for 200hp in Coil. Long story short: rather than fix the content (way more work), they fixed WAR.

[Dano]

this should be in the tank role forums

[HeroSamson]

Please no more for paladin, I already think the job is perfect the way it is.

Unless you replace moves with better ones that's the only way, I don't feel like stacking moves on a macro bar, replace current moves with upgraded ones other than that don't mess with it.

[indira]

if they every do the dual specility thing heres the DPS pld.

sword of oath - turns all defensive cool downs to offensive, WS bonus to damage bonus. swaps VIT with STR

more tanking junk.

we need to remove the 20% damage gimp from shield of oath, theres no point for it not like were gonna be OP but it will help with hate control a bit. thats the biggest issue we have make it a bit hard at the start of a fight when you have BLM's spamming flare.

[KinSlayer009]

Enough Said .....

[Donjo]

Enough Said .....
*Picture of awesome Inner Beast*

Yup, that's one reason why a WAR in Defiance wins against a PLD in Shield Oath when it comes to raw damage. In fact, a DPS MRD is also really dumb. An FC member claimed to have crit for about 2.1k as a MRD by popping every cross class buff ever at the same time.