Thread: SMN BIS 2.3

Originally Posted by Dwill

DET and CRT have an approximately equal value. The reason your damage didn't spike up really high between Book of Spades and High Allagan is the lose of DET for Spell Speed but the gain of 2 Weapon Damage and 15 CRT and for summoner, damage increase via Weapon Damage is not as high as melee since the base is so high to begin with.

So in the end, High Allagan is an upgrade from Book of Spades but it is a little one, not a big one like melees.

Ok so based on a pure numbers standpoint, you get 3 int, 2 WD and 15 crit for HA vs 31 det for BOS. If crit and det are approximately equal, that means 3 int + 2 WD is only slightly better than 16 det? It really seems like crit/det is pretty undervalued or WD really sucks for summoner.

Originally Posted by RinchanNau

Interesting. I just got my HA book recently. First raid I was able to use it was last week. I noticed my numbers increase by roughly 20-40 DPS over previous weeks. Increases of roughly 40 DPS t6-8 and about 20+ on t9. But this was also upgrading from ST legs to i110 soldiery legs. So a good chunk of that damage could also be from that rather large upgrade. 29 det that I did not have before.

I am behind on soldiery gear because I was a late re-roll to SMN from DRG and BRD prior. 2 weeks til I get my soldiery body and then I just need the HA ring for full BiS.

Hey if you could, test out on a dummy with the HA and BOS but with the same gear for everything else and get back to us? Cuz I'm only seeing a 5-10 dps increase using HA. It would be quite interesting..

Originally Posted by skaterger

Ok so based on a pure numbers standpoint, you get 3 int, 2 WD and 15 crit for HA vs 31 det for BOS. If crit and det are approximately equal, that means 3 int + 2 WD is only slightly better than 16 det? It really seems like crit/det is pretty undervalued or WD really sucks for summoner.

Using http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/NK61 as a base BiS set and changing between Book of Spades and High Allagan, the average damage per spells will only change by approximately 2%, so on an approximate 430 DPS in BiS, you are talking at about 8,6 DPS upgrade on average.

Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

Casting Rotation comparing full Spell Speed BiS VS Normal BiS (Recommended using Ifrit Only)
Spell Speed Gear http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/NK7T

A: 2.34s GCD
Bio, Mia, B2, SCSF, Ruin, Ruin, Ruin, Ruin, Bio, Ruin, Ruin, Mia, Ruin, Ruin, Ruin, B2, SF (2.8s), B, Mia, Ruin, Ruin, Ruin, Ruin, Ruin, Ruin, Ruin, B, Mia, B2, SCSF (at this point it repeats itself)

VS

B: 2.43 GCD

B, M, B2, SCSF, Ruin, Ruin, Ruin, B, Ruin, Ruin, M, Ruin, Ruin, Ruin, R2, SF, B, Ruin, Ruin, M, Ruin, Ruin, B, Ruin, Ruin, Ruin, B2, SCSF (Rotation has not yet repeated itself, but it has reached the 70.66 Seconds that Rotation A repeats at)

Total Potency of Rotation A: 5240
Total Potency of Rotation B: 4860 (This has 3% more damage due to higher Crit/Det, so equivalent to 5005)

So a difference of ~4%

What's the link to your non Spell Speed set ? Also, I do not see any Fester in there which would change your rotation to a degree.

Originally Posted by skaterger

Ok so based on a pure numbers standpoint, you get 3 int, 2 WD and 15 crit for HA vs 31 det for BOS. If crit and det are approximately equal, that means 3 int + 2 WD is only slightly better than 16 det? It really seems like crit/det is pretty undervalued or WD really sucks for summoner.

It would be better to disregard Crit in this comparison because both books have Crit and it's not a dependable stat to compare because of the minimal increase between the two books and the nature of Crits proccing. If we were to talk about direct damage modifier weights however, you would need about 45 DET to beat 2 WD + 3 INT.

The fact that the BOS book has 31 DET which is about 2/3s of the way there, lines up with the minimal damage increase you can get from upgrading to the HA Book.

Originally Posted by skaterger

After getting my HA book, I was looking at the numbers in coil and it seemed that it hardly increased, if any at all from the Book of Spades. I thought it was definitely a mistake or a bug or something until I read this today. So I was intrigued and went to test on a training dummy and over the course of 30 dot ticks, the average tick from BB2M seemed to be around 360-400 per tick without food. The highest tick for HA was 415 whereas there was a tick from BOS at 482. I also did further testing of a 3 min rotation on a dummy and I hit 415 d[s with BOS and 420 dps with HA which was really shocking since an upgrade from i110 to HA was at least a 20-30 dps increase for other classes. So does this mean that det>crit and also what is the reason for the dots having the same/slightly higher tick than HA?

This falls in line with what I was actually seeing in game as well. Putting the calculations of stat x weighs aside, in game I was also physically seeing higher DoT ticks with the BOS. Largely it shouldn't make sense for this but, this is in fact happening in game. This is why I also believe there's either a damage bug in play for DoTs with WD more then likely not affecting it or there's a slightly different equation at work here for DoTs which favors DET more, because its largely ONLY the DoTs that increase in damage from the BOS, everything else is stronger with the HA Book from my testing which would imply 31 DET > 2 WD + 3 INT for DoTs otherwise I can't think of another way to explain this discrepancy.

Originally Posted by RinchanNau

I do have a question about SMN that's probably been discussed plenty before. Is Miasma 2 really worth using with contagion? I have been using it most of the time but have thought about dropping it. The potency seemingly isn't worth the MP cost if it forces me to use energy drain over fester more than I would be otherwise.

Miasma II is only worth using in an AoE situation with 3+ mobs imo or when couple'd with Contagion for the duration increase. If your using Energy Drain more then not, you should in fact examine your rotation a bit more. The only fight you should be having some MP issues, not counting any ressing, is T8 because that fight is quite long with no breaks in between.

Perhaps you're over using Ruin II's (unquestionably the biggest mana drainer). You should only be using Ruin II during forced movement(Landslides, Twisters etcetc) or right before Fester comes off GCD.

Or you could be clipping your DoTs too early, another culprit of heavy MP drain. Making the best of things like Bane for AoE situations saves you alot of MP as well so working with your party for those situations plays a big role also.

Originally Posted by Uninstall

I don't' have where you are getting those numbers from. No one of any importance has ever claimed that 2 int is better than 40 det.

Most of the max int builds you will see on the forums will give up quite a heavy exchange of potential Det for the sake of keeping max int. Of course then there are some like yourself who would say max int is the way to go when that is not true when comparing the amount of Det you can gain by simply lowering 2 Int. According to builds on this forum 20-40 det is useless. On another note alot of people also assume you should be going Crit OR Det, when in actuality your builds for Summoner should be focused on Crit AND Det.

For me, priority is
1. Acc cap for T9 or close
2. WD come first, then Int
3. Select i110 piece that give at least Crit or Det
(with this logic, only HA Ring is compromised by Ramuh ring)

All in all, I believe (ya, no proof) dps discrepancy is minimal in any variation of full ilvl 110.
So, my build is to maximize no. of HA piece to minimize Sands, Oil. (honestly I rather spend Allied Seals to awesome look GC geats <; ). Only Evenstar chest and Wrist are worth upgrading IMO.

Going to agree with Havenchild on the SS part. Not only is the Weight of SS super low for Summoner, but because optimizing damage includes micro-managing the pet during Recast times, anything that shortens that window is bad for Summoner.
Not including Summoners instant cast skills as well, that while are off GCD still have an animation delay+the time it takes a player to use them.