Thread: SMN BIS 2.3

Originally Posted by pacifist0rz

Note that for this post I will be using the coefficients from http://ffxiv.ariyala.com (even though my testing has shown that crit should be weighted higher than this)

With the huge primary stats we gain in 2.2, CRT and DET are pretty much of equal value.

Originally Posted by Havenchild

I'm gonna assume were playing the same game. I've personally tried both books on T6, T8 and striking dummies. The Book of Spades for me, seems to tick higher for each DoT on average then the HA Book. I can only contribute this to the amount of DET in between the books despite that one clearly has more *Magic Attack* and Intelligence. If two magic attack was such a decisive increase then by no means should 31 DET be even ticking on average similar numbers.

Also your builds are uneven, one is using food , one isnt. One is also substituting a large amount of Int for a spike in DET which is also largely uneven in comparison to your other build.

Simply keeping the same build and switch the books, will suffice. The shift should be 3INT + 2 MAttk(High Allagan Book) vs 31 DET (Either Novus or BoS) if your using the same to compare.

I fixed the mistake with food in the first post and

Your second claim is not true either:

Even value CRT and DET Build 1 using full CRT and DET Novus: http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/NGQV (Even CRT and DET build came out the exact same as DET oriented build in the first post due to how itemization is done).
Even value CRT and DET Build 2 using High Allagan: http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/NGR0

Bio
(77*.2714745 + 576*.1006032 + (330-202)*.0241327 + 77*576*.0036167 + 77*(330-202)*.0010800 - 1) * (40/100) * 1.3 * (1 + 0.5*(0.0697 * 535 - 18.437)/100) = 143.3877
(75*.2714745 + 573*.1006032 + (363-202)*.0241327 + 75*573*.0036167 + 75*(363-202)*.0010800 - 1) * (40/100) * 1.3 * (1 + 0.5*(0.0697 * 535 - 18.437)/100) = 141.8901

Bio II and Miasma
(77*.2714745 + 576*.1006032 + (330-202)*.0241327 + 77*576*.0036167 + 77*(330-202)*.0010800 - 1) * (35/100) * 1.3 * (1 + 0.5*(0.0697 * 535 - 18.437)/100) = 125.4643
(75*.2714745 + 573*.1006032 + (363-202)*.0241327 + 75*573*.0036167 + 75*(363-202)*.0010800 - 1) * (35/100) * 1.3 * (1 + 0.5*(0.0697 * 535 - 18.437)/100) = 124.1538

Fester
(77*.2714745 + 576*.1006032 + (330-202)*.0241327 + 77*576*.0036167 + 77*(330-202)*.0010800 - 1) * (300/100) * 1.3 * (1 + 0.5*(0.0697 * 535 - 18.437)/100) = 1075.4084
(75*.2714745 + 573*.1006032 + (363-202)*.0241327 + 75*573*.0036167 + 75*(363-202)*.0010800 - 1) * (300/100) * 1.3 * (1 + 0.5*(0.0697 * 535 - 18.437)/100) = 1064.1758

If you factor in the difference in the Spell Speed difference as well, Build 2 will yield about 1.5% more damage than Build 1. That's also excluding the difference in Enhanced Pet actions procs, which in itself is harder to quantify.

You are correct when saying that it is better to keep a balance between both CRT and DET but your theory of DoTs being stronger with a full DET/CRT Novus than High Allagan is still wrong, High Allagan is still better.

Originally Posted by Havenchild

* Thanks for the correction but I left out the extra Crit and Spell speed the HA book gives, because these two stats are not direct modifiers of damage like INT/DET or WD.

CRT while not a direct damage stats is still a damage modifying stats which can be calculated to give an average damage value of an ability.

Originally Posted by Dwill

With the huge primary stats we gain in 2.2, CRT and DET are pretty much of equal value.

Yep that is what I was trying to say with the part of my statement in (). http://ffxiv.ariyala.com has det being weighted higher than crit, but my testing shows that crit is actually slightly beter than det now.

Originally Posted by NintenPyjak64

Here's my BiS btw. I made this at the beginning of 2.2 when accuracy caps were discovered and this list I cooked up has a perfect amount of accuracy

I am not sure where your list came from, but the link below is the BIS build using your coefficients (which are the same as http://ffxiv.ariyala.com coefficients)

http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/NGS1

Originally Posted by Havenchild

Thinking 2 Int is worth more then 40+ DET is horrendous.

Your statement is a massive exaggeration; no one anywhere is arguing that 2 int is better than 40 DET. 1 int is worth 3.5 det based on the http://ffxiv.ariyala.com coefficients. I am probably as anti-det as anyone comes, and my personal testing has shown it to be more like 1 int is worth ~6 det.

Originally Posted by Riyos

I have a question, could the novus/book of spades be better than the HA weapon? Yeah i know, 2 Magic damage points, but those 32 spell speed are horrible

2 Magic Damage is worth like 72-100 Secondary Stats. (probably not exact, but it's a lot) - So it's definitely worth it compared to Book of Spades.

Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

I have a general summoner question. I have a summoner that I may eventually make my main DPS class. Besides the obvious intelligence, what is the second best stat? Is it determination? Or a combo of determination and crit?

A combination of DET and CRIT while trying to get as little Spell Speed as possible.

Originally Posted by Havenchild

The strength if your DoTs are stronger using a max Det novus or a book of spades then using a HA book.

However the overall strength of your spells like Ruins and Fester do "decrease". Reason for quotes is more the window of damage is greater on the lower end. You can still hit as high as the HA book with say a Fester but you can also hit lower more often.

Your assessment is incorrect.


Using theoretical BiS build of:

Build 1: http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/NGQV for DET
Build 2: http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/NGID for CRT

Bio's damage value per tick with Build 1 using the current damage formula including CRT + Maim and Mend 2: 141.8901
Bio's damage value per tick with Build 2 using the current damage formula including CRT + Maim and Mend 2: 142.5040

Bio II and Miasma's damage value per tick with Build 1 using the current damage formula including CRT + Maim and Mend 2: 124.1538
Bio II and Miasma's damage value per tick with Build 2 using the current damage formula including CRT + Maim and Mend 2: 124.6910

Fester's damage value with Build 1 using the current damage formula including CRT + Maim and Mend 2: 1064.1758
Fester's damage value with Build 2 using the current damage formula including CRT + Maim and Mend 2: 1068.7805

If you factor in the difference in the Spell Speed difference as well, Build 2 will yield about 1.5% more damage than Build 1. That's also excluding the difference in Enhanced Pet actions procs, which in itself is harder to quantify.

Originally Posted by Illa

I hate to break it to you, but the only thing that DET augments is your Ruin, Ruin 2 and Fester damage. It does not augment any of your DoT damage by any significant amount. Considering that most of your damage dealt is from DoTs, it would be foolish to not try to increase that damage as much as possible. INT has always been the only way to raise your DoT damage and raising your DET is only valuable up to a certain point, so the DR on critical strike rate is not so heavy. Like accuracy, once DET reaches a certain point, the value per point greatly diminishes.

I hate to break it to you but sacrificing too much DET for a pittance worth of INT isn't better either. Also, DoTs makes up between 40-45% of your damage% of your damage with the remaining damage coming from Wind Blade, Enkindle, Fester, Ruin I, Ruin II

The thing about DET isn't the astonishing amount it gives to one DoT, it is its effect of affecting every single spell you cast, which includes every single DoT which adds up over time. Near BiS level of gear, your Int will not move a lot but depending on your choices of gear, your secondary stats can and picking up a balanced amount of CRT and DET will yield better results than just picking 2 INT and sacrificing 20-30 DET for it.

Originally Posted by skaterger

After getting my HA book, I was looking at the numbers in coil and it seemed that it hardly increased, if any at all from the Book of Spades. I thought it was definitely a mistake or a bug or something until I read this today. So I was intrigued and went to test on a training dummy and over the course of 30 dot ticks, the average tick from BB2M seemed to be around 360-400 per tick without food. The highest tick for HA was 415 whereas there was a tick from BOS at 482. I also did further testing of a 3 min rotation on a dummy and I hit 415 d[s with BOS and 420 dps with HA which was really shocking since an upgrade from i110 to HA was at least a 20-30 dps increase for other classes. So does this mean that det>crit and also what is the reason for the dots having the same/slightly higher tick than HA?

DET and CRT have an approximately equal value. The reason your damage didn't spike up really high between Book of Spades and High Allagan is the lose of DET for Spell Speed but the gain of 2 Weapon Damage and 15 CRT and for summoner, damage increase via Weapon Damage is not as high as melee since the base is so high to begin with.

So in the end, High Allagan is an upgrade from Book of Spades but it is a little one, not a big one like melees.