End game grind.

[Xatsh]

Gear score kills a game because it locks the devs into constant linear progression. Which honestly is a horrible model to use.

It makes it very hard to have content that last. The gear treadmill is what it is called. It is something that came with WoW and everyone else has adopted it but it is a bad design.

XI people did not mind the grind because yea it might take 3 months of work to get that BIS piece or 1=2yrs to get your relic, but that piece for its job was BIS for the next 9 years. Your hard work and time spent was rewarded for ever. Not 3-6 months.

- The argument people who never played it would be why would you want that, where that content was BIS for the life cycle of the game. That is where not having a gear score comes into play. That was the BIS piece for one of the 6 builds of your job, you had for 1 of your 18 jobs. See how that goes.

In a horizontal developed game you would have endless relevant content. Imaging how much more there would be to do if everything released since 2.0 launched at endgame was still top tier endgame. Now multiply that through 2 expansions. You have 100-300hrs a week of content (More then you can possibly do).


SE looking to WoW to get an idea on how to make casual content and UI was the right move. Copying the linear progression model is just a horrible horrible move. Gear Score is all negative and 0 positives.

It locks devs into making sure Ilvl 110 is weaker then 115. And the next patch you have to have a higher Ilvl which much be stronger then the 115. That is horrible design.

Yoshida needs to look at old XI, the one that was thriving and take a look at what is possible with horrizontal development. Yes new gear needs to replace some old gear. But each content should replace only 3-4 pieces of gear, combine that with multiple unique sets that are not strait stat boost and you will have content that will last for 1-2 yrs not 1-2 months.

Abysea and linear progression has all but turned XI into a ghost town.



I do not get devs and some people who want pure linear design.

What is better after a few years in the game.

10 raids, 60 instanced fights, 50-60 dungeons, 20 non-instance open world activities. All with relevant endgame gear

or

1 raid, 2 instanced fights, 3 dungeons, 2 open world activities. All with relevant endgame gear <= the current XIV and why so many people have an issue with it

It should not be a hard choice.

[Elven]

I think RNG combined with content that can't be done solo disillusions players and sure you can join an FC or PUG it but there is no guarantee you're going to progress as much as you would like. The grind as I mentioned earlier is all this game has.

[Kiara]

Different game entirely. Until Abyssea the game was a horizontal progression path so we didn't mind farming Dyna for years. Didn't want to farm Dyna, then you could run Nyzul, Salvage, Ein, Sea, Sky, etc.

Currently you have the latest iteration of Coil and that's pretty much it. By choosing a vertical progression for FFXIV the developers are continually invalidating their previous efforts and the players are growing heartily tired of their once a week upgrade lottery. I literally log in every few days, consider doing a roulette or PF and shrug as I know in a month or two my efforts will be invalidated. When I was younger I would have leapt in that hamster wheel but now I'm tired of the same old shit and as it increasingly appears S-E's vision for this game is a pathetically beige copy of WoW.

Well said, Grizzlebeard, Xatsh. Absolutely agree.

It's fine to look at the most successful MMORPG for inspiration, but they should look at their own successes and incorporate the best of both worlds.

It doesn't have to be as extreme a Horizontal Progression as XI was, but surely Yoshi P could have *some* Horizontal Progression and more Stats that mattered (and hence could be useful on Gear Sets), and thus, NOT have to put so much undue pressure on the Development Team, invalidating all the Top End Gear, every single major patch.

Fundamentally, you can still have NEW Challenges, NEW Fights / Dungeons, Bosses, it just doesn't have to make all the current gear you work for useless every 3 - 6 months.

There's nothing worse feeling than seeing the gear you finally earned become WORTHLESS with every major patch. It's a kick in the gut for many players, and makes the Hamster Wheel / Grind VERY apparent.

Instead, he should expose more interesting Statistics and make other Stats more worthwhile. An example of Interesting Gear Sets (Horizontal Progression) (just a quick example for Paladin) *IF STATS MATTERED MORE*:

(All the same "iLevel")

* Vitality (VIT) Gear Set emphasizing HP / "Blood tanking."

* Dexterity (DEX) Gear Set emphasizing Increasing Block & Parry Rate %.

* Strength (STR) Gear Set emphasizing Amount of Block Damage Reduction & Increased Damage style of tanking.

* "+ Enmity" Gear pieces that increased Enmity Generation.

* "Enhances Circle of Scorn" Item - This piece of Armor (whichever slot) enhances Circle of Scorn, adding another [Trait / Benefit / Debuff]" etc.

* "Increases Cure Potency" (for Paladins that want to heal others to actually make "Cure" on PLD useful, and it inherently generates Enmity through Curing).

* "Enhances Rampart" - Turns Rampart to its 1.23 version (granting an AOE Shielding Effect / Defense Up for nearby Party Members).

There are plenty more interesting ideas than what I wrote.

But the idea is that all of these could be very interesting and useful, and players could spend their time challenging a variety of Dungeons / getting some of these maybe even Crafted with Rare Dungeon Materials + [Item], etc.

Instead, the game has devolved into 1 Main Stat, and a couple ancillary Secondary Stats, and all of it gets Invalidated every 3 - 6 months with each patch.

[Worm]

to the point im not sure if i prolong my sub :'(

Why is everyone always taking themselves hostage?

Anyway I hope you guys have luck turning this into another horizontal progression thread. Maybe you should all start putting away a little cash when the throwback MMO you've been waiting for shows up on kickstarter, because I assure you, it will need every cent.

[Findel]

There's nothing worse feeling than seeing the gear you finally earned become WORTHLESS with every major patch. It's a kick in the gut for many players, and makes the Hamster Wheel / Grind VERY apparent.

This x100. I quit after 2.2 launched and only came back in 2.3 to get ready for 2.4. I have an i90 SCH, BRD and WHM and i84+ DRG and WAR. But all of that is worthless for endgame and I don't have the time or patience to grind for the next 3 months to maybe get to i100 or 105 on a single job to do coil. Not to mention, all the PUG coil groups on my server mostly want experienced players which I am currently not.

I really wished we would get at least 2-3 patches of horizontal gear progression so I have the time to build up to BiS for a SINGLE one of my jobs. If not 2 so I have play with some effing variety instead of being locked to a single job despite having 5 or 6 at 50. Almost feels like having more than a single job at 50 is utterly worthless because I can't properly gear more than 1 for coil. Everything else can currently be done with i80 and some skill.

[Codek]

Gear score kills a game because it locks the devs into constant linear progression. Which honestly is a horrible model to use.

It makes it very hard to have content that last. The gear treadmill is what it is called. It is something that came with WoW and everyone else has adopted it but it is a bad design.

XI people did not mind the grind because yea it might take 3 months of work to get that BIS piece or 1=2yrs to get your relic, but that piece for its job was BIS for the next 9 years. Your hard work and time spent was rewarded for ever. Not 3-6 months.

- The argument people who never played it would be why would you want that, where that content was BIS for the life cycle of the game. That is where not having a gear score comes into play. That was the BIS piece for one of the 6 builds of your job, you had for 1 of your 18 jobs. See how that goes.

In a horizontal developed game you would have endless relevant content. Imaging how much more there would be to do if everything released since 2.0 launched at endgame was still top tier endgame. Now multiply that through 2 expansions. You have 100-300hrs a week of content (More then you can possibly do).


SE looking to WoW to get an idea on how to make casual content and UI was the right move. Copying the linear progression model is just a horrible horrible move. Gear Score is all negative and 0 positives.

It locks devs into making sure Ilvl 110 is weaker then 115. And the next patch you have to have a higher Ilvl which much be stronger then the 115. That is horrible design.

Yoshida needs to look at old XI, the one that was thriving and take a look at what is possible with horrizontal development. Yes new gear needs to replace some old gear. But each content should replace only 3-4 pieces of gear, combine that with multiple unique sets that are not strait stat boost and you will have content that will last for 1-2 yrs not 1-2 months.

Abysea and linear progression has all but turned XI into a ghost town.



I do not get devs and some people who want pure linear design.

What is better after a few years in the game.

10 raids, 60 instanced fights, 50-60 dungeons, 20 non-instance open world activities. All with relevant endgame gear

or

1 raid, 2 instanced fights, 3 dungeons, 2 open world activities. All with relevant endgame gear <= the current XIV and why so many people have an issue with it

It should not be a hard choice.

Isn't your whole point a bit moot once it's pointed out that this game does not support the ability to swap gear out during combat?

When taking that into account, you would have to be delusional to believe that developers could balance out a system that incorporates a reason to kill 60+ boss fights and drop a piece of gear that is good for your character for the next few years.


Also FFXI's job balancing was a complete mess largely due to the ability to swap gear during combat. It's great for those who play the game for insane amount of hours but it really does ruin everything for the general player base.

I'd take game balance over the monster that XI had any day.