Thread: 1.18: Wipe your tears and open your eyes!

While I mostly agree with this thread, I do have a slight issue with blanketing the enmity/hate system as "perfect" or even "mostly ok". I'll start by saying keeping hate under this system is more than possible - it's actually relatively simple once you adjust to the new system and enmity values associated with abilities.

The problem, in my mind, is that the abilities all GLAs are using to keep hate are *not* GLA abilities. It should not be required that a GLA rank up CON and THM to 48 to get Cure/Sac III (or even Cure/Sac II, despite being relatively small investment of time). Or ranking up LNC to 30 for accomplice. Or MRD in the 40s for Defender II. PUG in the 40s for Taunt II. I made a list of all the abilities I could want as a tank and I literally could not find a class I wouldn't want 42+.

Now, we know class abilities are being adjusted to define more class specific roles but who knows what we'll end up with. Jobs apparently are being restricted from using other class abilities? Or something to that effect.

Classes should be relatively stand-alone, in my eyes. Especially since Yoshi recently said he's hoping to develop a system where 2 hours of gameplay a day for 3-4 months will get a class to rank cap. The idea of having to level 7 classes (or more, when more are released) to cap or near cap to be playing your class effectively is absurd.

Originally Posted by Val_Rhys

While I mostly agree with this thread, I do have a slight issue with blanketing the enmity/hate system as "perfect" or even "mostly ok". I'll start by saying keeping hate under this system is more than possible - it's actually relatively simple once you adjust to the new system and enmity values associated with abilities.

The problem, in my mind, is that the abilities all GLAs are using to keep hate are *not* GLA abilities. It should not be required that a GLA rank up CON and THM to 48 to get Cure/Sac III (or even Cure/Sac II, despite being relatively small investment of time). Or ranking up LNC to 30 for accomplice. Or MRD in the 40s for Defender II. PUG in the 40s for Taunt II. I made a list of all the abilities I could want as a tank and I literally could not find a class I wouldn't want 42+.

Now, we know class abilities are being adjusted to define more class specific roles but who knows what we'll end up with. Jobs apparently are being restricted from using other class abilities? Or something to that effect.

Classes should be relatively stand-alone, in my eyes. Especially since Yoshi recently said he's hoping to develop a system where 2 hours of gameplay a day for 3-4 months will get a class to rank cap. The idea of having to level 7 classes (or more, when more are released) to cap or near cap to be playing your class effectively is absurd.

Doesn't that defeat the purpose of having cross class abilities? Leveling them to cap is absurd, yes, but leveling them to 20 or so for cure II is not that bad at all. no different than leveling subjobs.

Originally Posted by Demacia

Doesn't that defeat the purpose of having cross class abilities? Leveling them to cap is absurd, yes, but leveling them to 20 or so for cure II is not that bad at all. no different than leveling subjobs.

It totally defeats the purpose of cross-class abilities, like you said. And I'm hoping for that. I actually get confused as to why people enjoy the concept of leveling, say, a Conjurer in order to play your Marauder. It's very counter-intuitive to me.

But even if they don't eliminate cross-class abilities (which I don't think they will) I think a subjob system, or a variation of it, would be better. The difference is, in FFXI you only had one subjob at a time so each main job typically only required a few subjobs to cover all your bases (and usually 1-2 were dominant).

Here, we'll all be required to level all classes to 25 (as an example). Which I'm a lot more comfortable with than currently feeling like I should level all classes to 50...

Originally Posted by Val_Rhys

It totally defeats the purpose of cross-class abilities, like you said. And I'm hoping for that. I actually get confused as to why people enjoy the concept of leveling, say, a Conjurer in order to play your Marauder. It's very counter-intuitive to me.

But even if they don't eliminate cross-class abilities (which I don't think they will) I think a subjob system, or a variation of it, would be better. The difference is, in FFXI you only had one subjob at a time so each main job typically only required a few subjobs to cover all your bases (and usually 1-2 were dominant).

Here, we'll all be required to level all classes to 25 (as an example). Which I'm a lot more comfortable with than currently feeling like I should level all classes to 50...

The setup allows people to play in a specific "primary" style, via their actual active class, while adding "flavor" or variety to it by picking and choosing skills from other classes.

It's rather like how what subjob you chose in XI affected the way you played your main, only in this case, there are far more options to choose from... at least where playing the base classes is concerned. It will apparently be a bit different when the Job system is implemented, as those will be more specialized.

Patch 1.18 inspired me to go back and level some other classes to gain abilities that'll be helpful for my brand of tanking/DD, so hurray 1.18.

That's all I have to add.

Originally Posted by Val_Rhys

While I mostly agree with this thread, I do have a slight issue with blanketing the enmity/hate system as "perfect" or even "mostly ok". I'll start by saying keeping hate under this system is more than possible - it's actually relatively simple once you adjust to the new system and enmity values associated with abilities.

The problem, in my mind, is that the abilities all GLAs are using to keep hate are *not* GLA abilities. It should not be required that a GLA rank up CON and THM to 48 to get Cure/Sac III (or even Cure/Sac II, despite being relatively small investment of time). Or ranking up LNC to 30 for accomplice. Or MRD in the 40s for Defender II. PUG in the 40s for Taunt II. I made a list of all the abilities I could want as a tank and I literally could not find a class I wouldn't want 42+.

Now, we know class abilities are being adjusted to define more class specific roles but who knows what we'll end up with. Jobs apparently are being restricted from using other class abilities? Or something to that effect.

Classes should be relatively stand-alone, in my eyes. Especially since Yoshi recently said he's hoping to develop a system where 2 hours of gameplay a day for 3-4 months will get a class to rank cap. The idea of having to level 7 classes (or more, when more are released) to cap or near cap to be playing your class effectively is absurd.

Accomplice is a rank 30 PGL skill... not LNC... :P

In all seriousness though, I don't believe they are necessary in all scenarios of tanking, however they serve as a great boon to one's ability to tank. If all it took to tank effectively was to rank GLA to 50 and be done, there'd be no long-term developmental goals.

The reason I ranked MRD and GLA up at all were to supplement my PGL tank with skills. The reason I ranked LNC was to get Invigorate II for my Archer. These goals keep me playing, trying out all the classes and discovering my unique playstyle.

My suggestions are in response to helping someone tank better - which with this system means accumulating hate more efficiently than the rest of the party's members.

Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Accomplice is a rank 30 PGL skill... not LNC... :P

In all seriousness though, I don't believe they are necessary in all scenarios of tanking, however they serve as a great boon to one's ability to tank. If all it took to tank effectively was to rank GLA to 50 and be done, there'd be no long-term developmental goals.

The reason I ranked MRD and GLA up at all were to supplement my PGL tank with skills. The reason I ranked LNC was to get Invigorate II for my Archer. These goals keep me playing, trying out all the classes and discovering my unique playstyle.

My suggestions are in response to helping someone tank better - which with this system means accumulating hate more efficiently than the rest of the party's members.

My mistake regarding Accomplice.

I, too, only leveled MRD to 30 for my GLA and CON/THM for Cure/Sac II. I just don't know if I'm on board with this idea in the long term. If all cross-class abilities were restricted to, say, half the rank cap, I'd be much happier. I'm not against leveling other classes for some long-term goals, in a general sense. Perhaps they also restrict abilities such that only DoWs can share among DoWs, and DoMs share DoMs (or something). Just an idea though. There are tons of potential solutions and I'm hopeful the development team finds a good one.

I don't like the idea of a MRD or LNC casting Cure anyway, but maybe I'm too much of role-specific purist :P

I believe long term goals and character development should come from content achievements and gear acquisition. Leveling all classes seems like a bit of a gimmick. I also think being forced to level all classes to play a particular class effectively alienates a huge portion of the population (for time constraints). Achieving r50 should feel like you're ready to tackle endgame content - not feeling overwhelmed when having to grind out 6 more classes to some arbitrary rank for one or two random abilities.

Originally Posted by Rimmer

This is one of my major concerns with the game currently, It really does feel as if to do one job particularly well im going to have to level up multiple classes just to be able to do that, very overwhelming indeed.

I do hope that in the future, possibly with the implementation of the job system that this problem will be resolved, it is a rather off putting element to the game, its definately scaring me off a bit as im sure it may well be for many other players and potential customers, as well as the lack of a good & fun levelling experience.

Every FF game with a job/class system has been this way. They all made use of cross classing to get the most out of the game. This isn't new. If that scares people, than maybe this isn't the game for them.