1.18: Wipe your tears and open your eyes!

**Plague** · 07-27-2011 02:46 AM

Great write up OP.

I'll tell you what happened with this patch.

Tanks need to actually tank now.

Healers need to actually heal now.

DPS can't just be mindless key spammers now.

All of this done together correctly = great game play that is at least somewhat challenging now and very fun and satisfying!

Thank you Yoshi!

**Obsy** · 07-27-2011 02:46 AM

OMG 30 SECONDS?!?

What's funny is if the devs left enmity/hate management exactly where it is now and refused to touch it again, people would adapt. And after they've adapted and the devs decided to tweak it again, people would piss and moan.

**Val_Rhys** · 07-27-2011 02:53 AM

Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Accomplice is a rank 30 PGL skill... not LNC... :P

In all seriousness though, I don't believe they are necessary in all scenarios of tanking, however they serve as a great boon to one's ability to tank. If all it took to tank effectively was to rank GLA to 50 and be done, there'd be no long-term developmental goals.

The reason I ranked MRD and GLA up at all were to supplement my PGL tank with skills. The reason I ranked LNC was to get Invigorate II for my Archer. These goals keep me playing, trying out all the classes and discovering my unique playstyle.

My suggestions are in response to helping someone tank better - which with this system means accumulating hate more efficiently than the rest of the party's members.

My mistake regarding Accomplice.

I, too, only leveled MRD to 30 for my GLA and CON/THM for Cure/Sac II. I just don't know if I'm on board with this idea in the long term. If all cross-class abilities were restricted to, say, half the rank cap, I'd be much happier. I'm not against leveling other classes for some long-term goals, in a general sense. Perhaps they also restrict abilities such that only DoWs can share among DoWs, and DoMs share DoMs (or something). Just an idea though. There are tons of potential solutions and I'm hopeful the development team finds a good one.

I don't like the idea of a MRD or LNC casting Cure anyway, but maybe I'm too much of role-specific purist :P

I believe long term goals and character development should come from content achievements and gear acquisition. Leveling all classes seems like a bit of a gimmick. I also think being forced to level all classes to play a particular class effectively alienates a huge portion of the population (for time constraints). Achieving r50 should feel like you're ready to tackle endgame content - not feeling overwhelmed when having to grind out 6 more classes to some arbitrary rank for one or two random abilities.

**NoctisUmbra** · 07-27-2011 02:59 AM

Let's also not forget that 1.18 is just the beginning of a series of patches that are changing this game.

I'm sure once jobs kick in and Paladin is made available, GLAs will be able to tank much more effectively without feeling the necessity to rank up every other class.

Also mages will be able to cast spells in passive mode, meaning constant MP regen.

It's important to see the direction - where the game is headed, rather than remain stuck on the current state, which still isn't nearly as bad as some people try to make it sound.

**Val_Rhys** · 07-27-2011 03:02 AM

Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Let's also not forget that 1.18 is just the beginning of a series of patches that are changing this game.

I'm sure once jobs kick in and Paladin is made available, GLAs will be able to tank much more effectively without feeling the necessity to rank up every other class.

Also mages will be able to cast spells in passive mode, meaning constant MP regen.

It's important to see the direction - where the game is headed, rather than remain stuck on the current state, which still isn't nearly as bad as some people try to make it sound.

Completely agree. This was the first patch I actually said to myself "Ok, I could see myself playing this game if we continue down this path". There are a few other key changes I want implemented, but they've all been discussed by the Producer already. We're not quite there yet, but I'm hopeful.

I read a post in another thread of someone comparing the Ogre/Batraal battles to Absolute Virtue. The patch has been out 5 days and players are already killing it with *relative* ease. Best example of hyperbole and overreaction I've seen in a long, long time. People love to complain and resist change, even when it's a clearly better option.

**Lerris** · 07-27-2011 03:13 AM

Originally Posted by Raim

You need to reevaluate your opinion of SE's abiity to balance hate if you think telling everyone to not attack for 30 seconds at the beginning of a fight is in any way normal.

You're right. Mindless zerging is perfectly normal. Which is why I generally stay away from most online games.

Originally Posted by Raim

You need to realize that such a tactic is not employed in any other modern MMORPG, and that 30 seconds of healing even while managing MP properly is a strain on Casters that should not be necessary.

That's hardly an argument against. Many of us are not thrilled by the way modern MMORPGs do things.

Originally Posted by Val_Rhys

While I mostly agree with this thread, I do have a slight issue with blanketing the enmity/hate system as "perfect" or even "mostly ok". I'll start by saying keeping hate under this system is more than possible - it's actually relatively simple once you adjust to the new system and enmity values associated with abilities.

The problem, in my mind, is that the abilities all GLAs are using to keep hate are *not* GLA abilities. It should not be required that a GLA rank up CON and THM to 48 to get Cure/Sac III (or even Cure/Sac II, despite being relatively small investment of time). Or ranking up LNC to 30 for accomplice. Or MRD in the 40s for Defender II. PUG in the 40s for Taunt II. I made a list of all the abilities I could want as a tank and I literally could not find a class I wouldn't want 42+.

Now, we know class abilities are being adjusted to define more class specific roles but who knows what we'll end up with. Jobs apparently are being restricted from using other class abilities? Or something to that effect.

Classes should be relatively stand-alone, in my eyes. Especially since Yoshi recently said he's hoping to develop a system where 2 hours of gameplay a day for 3-4 months will get a class to rank cap. The idea of having to level 7 classes (or more, when more are released) to cap or near cap to be playing your class effectively is absurd.

Gladiators are not going to be the main tank forever, nor conjurers the main healer. They will presumably be replaced by paladin and white mage, which will probably have better hate control and damage mitigation than a gladiator with appropriate cross-class skills, and more efficient healing skills than a suitably built conjurer. Yoshi said it was a risk to release content before completely overhauling the systems, and that is what we are seeing here. These new battles are designed for specialized characters, and neither conjurer nor gladiator are as specialized as they need to be for a lot of players to succeed.

**Spitfire** · 07-27-2011 03:16 AM

Originally Posted by Misha

You forgot to point out bloodletter has a badass animation now too

... just saying... cause I agree with everything else LoL (I know not technically a gameplay tweak but the Yoshi style ws's are ... O.O)

Oh and provoke now no longer instantly grabs hate from target just builds it, didn't see that directly mentioned (maybe missed it?!) Just wanted to point that out to people, no one seems to read the patch notes, even though you kinda covered that but just wanted to throw it out... otherwise great write up

Edit: Cover neeeeeeeds some love, should add that in <3 Hehe sorry xD

What about Doomspike; I feel like a Spartan now!

**Shyd** · 07-27-2011 03:17 AM

Originally Posted by Eekiki

Based on what I read here, I'm not so sure about that.

*highfive*

**Capita** · 07-27-2011 03:42 AM

Anyone who says Archers were nerfed is pretty dumb. Our overall damage was buffed, and a tri-nocked Multishot is hitting harder than the previous tri-nocked Multishot, at least from what I've seen. Buffed triple Multi only brought Wolves down to 50% HP before. Now my buffed triple Multis take Wolves down to about 10-15% HP.

But that still doesn't mean I like the Multishot mechanic.

It's great in combat, most definitely. Plus our actual damage was buffed in general (including Light Shot). But out of combat, it's such a chore to hit it once, wait 15 seconds, then hit it again.

I'm just worried about our future as DD with a lack of a ranged AA if Haste becomes a big deal again.

**NoctisUmbra** · 07-27-2011 03:47 AM

Originally Posted by Spitfire

What about Doomspike; I feel like a Spartan now!

Yea I only expected the animation change for Chaos Thrust as shown in the video... but man Doomspike II looks awesome!

Thread: 1.18: Wipe your tears and open your eyes!

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