Thread: What can the dev team do to satisfy the critics of 1.18?

You can not please everyone, that much is certain, if they quit so be it, if they had a valid reason for doing so it already went out the window when they uninstalled the game so who cares about them, the important people who stayed with FFXIV are still here and willing to get used to the changes, all that matters .

PS: I honestly see no point in coming online and saying: " I waited to see if they could save this game but no I am installing it after they took a step backwards".

This makes no sense if someone had issues with the game and were waiting on something why keep playing the game? why not uninstall back then? the game was perfect to them being broken and boring, but then when they balanced the game out, (not the end be balancing since there is more to come), they scream I quit, they should not be complaining about a game if they saw it perfect before.

I would say tweak what realistically needs to be, then continue rolling out the content & changes in 1.19.

I agree to disagree, I really see nothing wrong with the update, probably a few spells mp issues but none the less nothing is wrong, you have to find a way to manage mp and enmity now. I have a solution for Se, they could release recipes for enmity boosting, food that helps with it, thus also nice mp boosting foods, along with mp replenishing drinks, (probably already have foods and drinks though), that may help. People need to get used to the enmity system, and mp management.

Few things:

Originally Posted by Neptune

Let's take a look at some of the (unintended) consequences of patch 1.18:

-Looking for members Darkhold GLA/CON/CON/CON/CON/ARC/ARC/ARC, leaving out other classes

Plenty of threads out there showing it is JUST as effective to use any of the other classes as DDs vs the Ogre. Sure Archers get away easier and with less risk due to being at range, but that much was the same before the patch. The patch brought change, and people naturally chose to go with the path of least resistance in untreaded territory - aka use DPS with least risk. A large number of parties have successfully, and repeatedly completed the r45 dungeon with no more than a single archer and 3 mages. No such consequence I'm afraid.

-Leveled Thaumaturge for months just for healing, but now have to set the whole class aside and level the healer class du jour
-Running out of MP while soloing guildleves
-Baffling hate spikes throughout the game - need a R30 Lancer ability for tanking?
-Offensive build Conjurers in low demand
-Hybrid Conjurers with less abilities to contribute in battle because resources shifted toward healing
-Archers upset with their recast times

- Ava came through with the awesome Soloing Guide to the 1.18 Mage already. I'll skip this.
- New enmity system, takes time to ascertain the intricacies. Certainly more than than 5 days. Also obtaining cross class skills to increase efficiency as a tank is hardly a post 1.18 thing.
- Conjurers have been made to clearly be more efficient at healing than DPS. Thaumaturges have been made to clearly be more efficient at DPS than healing. A distinction between the two mages was required, instead of having the "end-all-be-all mage" THM. I can understand people being disappointed with such changes if they ranked either mage with hopes of using them differently, but the developers did say well in advance that they will be increasing class uniqueness and held a poll which resulted in a vast majority of the community voting they would be up for drastic changes to the battle system and classes.
- Archers upset over Multishot recast have not thought things through. More and more archers are realizing now that in fact their utility as a DD has increased, and in fact their DPS has increased as well.

Originally Posted by Neptune

I want people to understand what's behind the changes in this patch. In design, there are trade-offs. For instance, when a developer changes one thing, but creates a bug somewhere else, this is an instance of a trade off. The new thing works in the build, but the trade-off is that the old thing doesn't.

I'm sorry, but that's not called a "trade-off" - that's simply called a bug, or an unintended side-effect. A bug is when something is not working as designed or not at all, whereas a trade-off is knowingly making a change that affects two things (one negative while the other positive) but both are still working and working as designed.

Originally Posted by Neptune

Let's take a look at the anecdotal evidence here on the boards..

Originally Posted by Neptune

It should be obvious to people putting the facts together:

Wait a tick - how can something be anecdotal but at the same time factual as well?

Originally Posted by Neptune

Let's take a look at some of the (unintended) consequences of patch 1.18:

-Looking for members Darkhold GLA/CON/CON/CON/CON/ARC/ARC/ARC, leaving out other classes

That's because players either a) aren't good, or b) simply have separation anxiety from pre-1.18 and don't want to rework and rethink their play strategies. Trust me, as a game developer, we play-test changes/new content for it's "playability" before releasing to the players; and if the SE dev play-testers were only able to play Darkhold with the party setup that you asserted above then we all may as well quit the game. However, I've seen some good changes from this new dev team and I'm confident they were able to play Darkhold with a much different setup.

Originally Posted by Neptune

-Leveled Thaumaturge for months just for healing, but now have to set the whole class aside and level the healer class du jour

Beginning description from official THM description : "In the hands of a skilled practitioner, thaumaturgy can be a force of terrifying destruction." ... WHOOPS! And you (or whomever you're referring to above) thought this would be the best class to level just for healing? Interesting choice - to each their own I suppose.

Originally Posted by Neptune

-Running out of MP while soloing guildleves

This can't mean everyone because I only run out of MP while soloing guildleves if I rush and forget to pause for a few seconds between each kill and let my MP auto-refresh itself a number of ticks (not to mention running while in combat-mode).

Originally Posted by Neptune

-Baffling hate spikes throughout the game - need a R30 Lancer ability for tanking?

Maybe - why not? In FFXI you needed /WHM to get any regularly available AoE healing abilities, let alone the -na spells. (And before anyone rages out and goes "THIS IS FFXIV NOT FFXI" you'd do well to remember that EVERY FF game in the series has been influenced by past FF titles). So, to be a "good" tank you may need to swap out a few abilities, or maybe it would be worth-while to make sure to include a certain class/role in your pt to help with whatever it may be. I mean, after all, didn't Yoshi (or some dev post on a forum) mention that holding threat isn't always going to be 100% on the tank's shoulders? I think so but I can't recall the specific letter/post/etc.

Originally Posted by Neptune

-Offensive build Conjurers in low demand

And this is the dev's fault that players/groups can't see the benefits of an offensive CNJ? Or is it just that a good offensive CNJ just doesn't exist yet because he or she is getting re-acclimated to the overall changes to the DoM classes? So in that "GLA/CON/CON/CON/CON/ARC/ARC/ARC" setup that you mentioned above, not ONE of those CNJ is equipped for an offensive role?

Originally Posted by Neptune

-Hybrid Conjurers with less abilities to contribute in battle because resources shifted toward healing

Shouldn't you only have "hybrid" makeups when you're already solid on the roles that make up the "hybrid" in the first place? That is, assuming you mean a "hybrid CNJ" both nukes, debuffs, and heals, wouldn't that only work if you had a dedicated healer or dedicated nuker or dedicated debuffer already in the party/group? Seems to me that it's simply a bad role setup for the group/situation. Afterall, the hybrid DoW player would probably have some sort of a cure/sacrifice/protect/shell/etc. spell on them while they are soloing, but would set abilities specifically for say tanking or DD while in a group and ignore the other "hybrid" spells/abilities.

Originally Posted by Neptune

-Archers upset with their recast times

If someone took away the cocaine from drug addicts and replaced it with apples I'm sure they would would be upset too.

Originally Posted by Neptune

So we've seen that the trade-off for the above issues is the rewarding gameplay in Darkhold. Now ask yourself, is 1 dungeon's gameplay significant enough to throw the balance of the entire remaining game off? I'd say: the dev team got carried away in the rush to make a competent dungeon. They forgot about the rest of the game because they had too much riding on it. They were already nervous about releasing it before the battle changes were finished but they were embarrassed by releasing nothing for over 3 months straight. They were backed into a corner and they panicked. They balanced recast timers and ability changes around Darkhold -

Do you watch Glen Beck? Or do you follow Michelle Bauchmann on Twitter?

I'm not sure where you're getting the information that would support your suggestion that the dev team got "carried away" while making Darkhold and so they "forgot" about the rest of the game because I'm seeing a lot of content in this patch that has nearly nothing to do with the battle system or either of the two dungeons.

As far as the battle changes, it's been well-communicated that all the changes weren't going to be in just one single patch, but instead they wer going to span multiple patches. Are you sure you want to go as far as to suggest that they temporarily "balanced recast timers and ability changes" just so they could "nervously" release some sort of end-game content such as Darkhold? So does that mean, then, when they finish all the changes to the battle system that these "recast timers and ability changes" which you speak of will be ... re-changed/balanced again around whatever future content is added?

Originally Posted by Neptune

but the question is: is this arbitrary fact enough to justify going further down this path?

Actually, before anyone thinks about attempting to ponder that question I have an honest question: What do you mean by this? I mean, respectfully, I'm confused by this, and I'm thinking it's your word usage. What is an "arbitrary fact"? It sounds as if you're contradicting yourself because for something to be arbitrary (e.g., a decision) it is based purely on one's subjective perspective in that no context at all suggests nor guarantees the existence of any factual information.

Originally Posted by Neptune

Should the dev team reverse course on some of the unpopular changes and find another way to balance gameplay in Darkhold? Yes.

I might be missing something, but was there another survey that was sent out to the entire player [active/inactive] community related to the changes of 1.18 wherein the results provided empirical evidence to suggest that the changes you've mentioned were unpopular overall?

Originally Posted by Neptune

What are the dev team's options?

-Continue down the same path of balancing classes around dungeons
-Or balance battle in all situations, including dungeons

The dev team should take into account all battle situations: solo, party, guildleve, low-tier NM, world NM, dungeon, enthusiast soloing

I'm pretty sure the New Years survey suggested that the majority of players wanted to participate and group/party gameplay whether doing missions or quests or whatever; and I'm equally as sure that the majority of players also wanted more class/role uniqueness and less of a "melting pot". Why, then, should the battle system be geared in such a way to give special accommodations for any class/role to engage in solo battles and yet still be able to perform at the capacity that is required to fill a specific role during group/party battles?

Originally Posted by Neptune

MP costs should be balanced to take into account soloing, or it should be left as is and MP regen food should be added and MP restoring mana drinks between fights

First off, you can't formulate MP costs in favor of solo-play without unbalancing party-play. It's like wanting to pay less taxes and wanting a bigger social security check - ebb and flow. Also, isn't "Ether" a word to describe "MP restoring mana drinks"? The game has these already. And how do you know future patches won't contain MP-regen food/drinks?

Originally Posted by Neptune

Enmity needs to be tested thoroughly in all situations before being patched.

Actually, only non-solo, battle situations need to be "tested thoroughly" (which I'm willing to bet they already are) because enmity doesn't even matter when you're in solo-battle.

Originally Posted by Neptune

The dev team also has a profound choice to make about healing. One of their goals is role identity. If there's a healer role it must be all-consuming to give it a strong identity.

100% Agree. As do a fair majority (with respect to any class/role) according to the New Years poll/survey.

Originally Posted by Neptune

On the other hand, the original design of FFXIV is that every class is back-up healer. That path avoids the kind of micromanagement gameplay of FFXI that became tiring to some healers, and a more rewarding type of gameplay where everyone shares responsibility. The two paths are mutually exclusive.

Very true - you can't have a well-defined, well-attributed, role-specific healing class while at the same time having a half-assed "generic" healing type class that everyone and their uncle, and on any class/role, can effectively use by spamming the few relatively useful spells with little to no fear of resource/MP depletion. Sort of like having having a chicken and the egg that created the chicken at the same time (mmm, chicken-fried eggs).

Originally Posted by Neptune

The dev team should make a White Mage job, and it should have micromanagement gameplay. MP costs should be lowered from what they are now to allow for backup healers. Access to the White Mage job should be through Thaumaturge and Conjurer until the game is relaunched.

I'm sorry, but I thought the whole notion of a solid, well-defined/specified healing class/job couldn't exist as one while also being low-managed, low-MP cost "backup" healing class because of the whole mutually exclusive thing.

Originally Posted by Neptune

Curaga spells should be White Mage specific,

...which they are. And I also 100% agree.

Originally Posted by Neptune

and aoe heals should be reinstated to Thaumaturge and Conjurer with lowered effectiveness, to allow for all classes access to Darkhold and not just GLA/CON/ARC.

So, what's the point of Curaga then if not to be overshadowed by spamming a spell that can be cast as AoE with "lowered effectiveness" but with lower MP cost and [potentially] cast time? What's the point of having a class/job designed for healing when other classes can do just as well? It sounds like what you're suggesting is nothing too different from DoM/DoW classes were pre-1.18: a bigger melting pot.

Originally Posted by Neptune

Auto-attack range should be increased for Thaumaturge and Conjurer, or Spirit Dart / Nature's Fury should have 3-5 second recast.

But, in order to auto-attack a mob you need to be in melee range. Are you suggesting that the DoMs should be able to stand further than what the DoWs have to stand away from the mobs in order to pointlessly whack away at a mob and give it TP faster so that it can use it's [more-than-likely] harmful AoE abilities on the entire party? I can't speak for all DoM players, but when I'm in a party I'm too busy casting many other spells to worry about the recast of Spirit Dart or other TP-based moves.

Originally Posted by Neptune

all of these changes were based on making Darkhold the best it could be. In the attempt to do that was any of the rest of the game set off balance?

I couldn't disagree more. This game is first a Final Fantasy game, second a Role Playing Game, and third an MMO; and what this patch, and many others, is doing for this game is making changes in order to conform to that. This game cannot be an MMORPG without first being an RPG, and it cannot be a FF-MMORPG without first being a FF game.

Furthermore, there is another choice that the dev team(s) can do in response to the critics that the OP didn't metion: ignore them. Why? Because everything that every negative critic has said is completely subjective; over-zealoused opinions sparked from upset of changes that removed the "comfort zones" the players have been used to playing in since September 2010.

Dev team(s) - keep up the good work!

Right now the only thing that seems really messed up game wise is World NMs.
And this is only due to them still spamming AOE attacks while the spam AOE curing has gone bye bye.
A few classes have been hit pretty hard by the changes, but hopefully SE will rectify those soon enough.